Re: My (tentative) beliefs
Re: My (tentative) beliefs
Just a quick diversion here, Andrew, because these terms of reference come up every now and again…
Jews participated on the basis of race and torah observance; Gentiles, non Jews, participate on the basis of faith in Christ.
Jews obviously participated in the Jewish nation on the basis of race. I think it is questionable to conflate race and torah observance together as the basis of participation in the covenant.
Jews participate in the covenant on the basis of faithfulness to the covenant calling, primarily expressed through circumcision, something that a careful reading of the NT (Acts 21.21, 24:13-20 et al) doesn’t appear to change - for Jews, not Gentiles.
It seems that an important NT issue was turning torah observance into a set of religious rules which could be followed without faith, without reliance upon God - for which Paul coined the term "upo nomos" - usually translated "under the law" or referred to as "legalism" - the letter without the Spirit.
Meanwhile, Hebrews 11 confirms that faith has always been the manner in which God was pleased with (mainly Jewish) faithfulness - and thus faith is not a NT invention. The wider framework suggests to me that faith and torah observance could probably be described as being the same thing. It is in correctly understanding what torah is that faithfulness to the calling is worked out.
Hebrews 8.6 according to certain Messianic Jewish commentators suggests the new covenant itself "has been made torah" - the "torah as upheld by the Messiah," (1 Corinthians 9.21 JNT) - that is torah, as understood and taught by the Messiah.
I recognise we may not want to get into responding about the finer details of these things, but if you can comfortably respond to the main point about faith’s relevance to the former covenant, that would be helpful - I note your other correspondent takes issue with you on the same point.
shalom! - john
- Re: My (tentative) beliefs By: larry91403 (07/01/2006 - 21:57)
- Re: My (tentative) beliefs By: andrew (08/01/2006 - 00:00)
- Re: My (tentative) beliefs By: john (10/01/2006 - 10:53)
- Re: My (tentative) beliefs By: andrew (11/01/2006 - 01:37)
- Re: My (tentative) beliefs By: john (11/01/2006 - 14:07)
- Re: My (tentative) beliefs By: larry91403 (11/01/2006 - 23:41)
- Re: My (tentative) beliefs By: larry91403 (11/01/2006 - 23:38)
- Re: My (tentative) beliefs By: larry91403 (11/01/2006 - 01:58)
- Re: My (tentative) beliefs By: john (11/01/2006 - 13:31)
- righteousness By: peter wilkinson (11/01/2006 - 14:22)
- right all along? By: john (11/01/2006 - 15:32)
- Wright all along By: peter wilkinson (11/01/2006 - 16:19)
- coming right along By: john (11/01/2006 - 16:38)
- Re: coming right along By: peter wilkinson (11/01/2006 - 17:06)
- coming right along By: john (11/01/2006 - 16:38)
- Wright all along By: peter wilkinson (11/01/2006 - 16:19)
- right all along? By: john (11/01/2006 - 15:32)
- righteousness By: peter wilkinson (11/01/2006 - 14:22)
- Israel's self-understanding By: andrew (11/01/2006 - 13:02)
- Re: Israel's self-understanding By: larry91403 (11/01/2006 - 23:26)
- Re: Israel's self-understanding By: andrew (12/01/2006 - 02:02)
- Re: Israel's self-understanding By: larry91403 (11/01/2006 - 23:26)
- Re: My (tentative) beliefs By: john (11/01/2006 - 13:31)
- Re: My (tentative) beliefs By: john (11/01/2006 - 14:07)
- Re: My (tentative) beliefs By: larry91403 (10/01/2006 - 22:09)
- Re: My (tentative) beliefs By: andrew (11/01/2006 - 01:37)
- Re: My (tentative) beliefs By: larry91403 (08/01/2006 - 11:03)
- Re: My (tentative) beliefs By: andrew (08/01/2006 - 22:41)
- Re: My (tentative) beliefs By: larry91403 (10/01/2006 - 02:51)
- Re: My (tentative) beliefs By: andrew (08/01/2006 - 22:41)
- Re: My (tentative) beliefs By: john (10/01/2006 - 10:53)
- Re: My (tentative) beliefs By: andrew (08/01/2006 - 00:00)
- What is the role of the Creed? By: sbryan (07/03/2005 - 01:23)
- Even postmoderns feel the need for creed By: grifgraf (05/05/2005 - 23:59)
- I am interested in your ident By: Chris (06/05/2005 - 01:38)
- Are we talking about philanthropy or being the Church? By: grifgraf (06/05/2005 - 09:36)
- Re: Are we talking about philanthropy or being the Church? By: larry91403 (10/01/2006 - 02:55)
- something or someone By: john (09/05/2005 - 11:39)
- Whether or not we "want& By: sbryan (06/05/2005 - 17:34)
- quality and practise By: john (06/05/2005 - 18:04)
- Quailty Control..? By: sbryan (07/05/2005 - 03:37)
- accusations and accomodations By: john (09/05/2005 - 08:52)
- Quailty Control..? By: sbryan (07/05/2005 - 03:37)
- quality and practise By: john (06/05/2005 - 18:04)
- Are we talking about philanthropy or being the Church? By: grifgraf (06/05/2005 - 09:36)
- Do we need the same creed to work together? I don't think so... By: (06/05/2005 - 01:06)
- Orthodoxy, orthopraxy and creed By: mars-hill (20/05/2005 - 03:08)
- I am interested in your ident By: Chris (06/05/2005 - 01:38)
- Even postmoderns feel the need for creed By: grifgraf (05/05/2005 - 23:59)
- The failure of Israel By: (09/08/2004 - 13:16)
- Narrative Creed By: (09/03/2004 - 22:29)
- Grounding the Ongoing Story By: (26/04/2004 - 18:38)
- hey, Andrew. That's superb. By: (22/02/2004 - 22:53)
- How many New Heavens and Earths? By: (23/02/2004 - 22:48)
- aye By: (22/02/2004 - 05:52)

Contradictions in the Gospels: Problems or Opportunities?
Day One: A Sir Toby's Creation Myth
A Generous Orthdoxy - Brian McLaren
The Lost World of Genesis One - John H. Walton