This is very fruitful conversation Daniel. It probably gets deeper into this issue than most conversations I’ve had or read.

I still hear you clinging to the modern mentality of needing every story to contain exact facts or it’s worthless. I suspect that is based on socialization and worldview issues more than anything. I realize our worldviews are not easily overcome. That is exactly why Andrew has stated several times that the best approach to take for biblical myths is to look at them AS IF they are not literally true so that we can see their deeper meanings. He took a great deal of heat for that suggestion, but I think he was correct and offered a way out of the division.

As for your story about the pepto-bismol, you are correct to assume I don’t believe it multiplied. I do believe a single bottle was rationed in order to help everyone. Is that the same thing? I will always stick to the best scientific evidence we have about how the universe works. If this pepto-bismol did multiply then I would suggest your friend submit a article for peer review in the scientific community and once it is established that the particular attributes of pepto-bismol lend to multiplication and new theories are tested I’ll add that to my worldview. Otherwise, I’ll take the most probably answer to the question which is clearly “NO, that didn’t happen”. I’m open to proof and retooling my worldview as needed.

You are wrong to assume my attitude is one of condescension towards Shane. I do think he firmly believes that happened. But what I realize about reality is that it is ALWAYS interpreted and he was interpreting his reality right on the spot. When I look at the yellow coffee cup in front of me, I see a yellow coffee cup. This is not a clear statement of reality. The reality is that there are billions of atoms moving around at various speeds and because of how I interpret reality, I interpret that to be a yellow coffee cup. If I was color blind I might not interpret reality that way. If a stranger walked in and didn’t realize I had just finished the coffee inside they might not qualify the description with the word “coffee”. They might also call it a “mug” or assume it was for tea. How else does a ouija board or palm reading work? They work because people go into the experience with an explanation set as a possiblity and as they experience the event they interpret it based on their worldview and assumptions. When I was younger I believed in miracles and I saw them. When I believed God spoke to me in dreams, I had God given dreams. I still have the same dreams and see the same occurances, but I no longer make the same interpretations.

A proper historical account of Shane’s experience would list exact dosages, exact symptoms, timelines, and clear results. We don’t have a historical account. What we do have is a 2nd or 3rd hand interpretation of the story along with its meaning/explanation. We can prove that similar effects happen with placebos all the time. We have scientific evidence which actually proves my interpretation as a high possiblity. We have zero evidence that your interpretation is ever possible. The best I can do is weigh the results and make my best judgement based on the best evidence.

Rosa Parks provides a great example. We today cannot separate her actions from the metaphorical meanings of those actions. We interpret them through the entire history of the civil rights movement. The individual act did nothing independently to create civil rights. BUT, many people saw the more-than-literal meanings of her actions and then played out the meanings of her protest on a large scale. Only by real people living out the meanings of the story was the story able to become a transformative myth. If you asked her at that moment she might have said (and I think she did actually say this when interviewed) - I was just tired and fed up so I refused to go to the back. That doesn’t make for a great story and it doesn’t change systems. Now in hindsight, we retell that story as a grand myth about how one woman changed a national system of civil rights and liberated millions of african americans from racist oppression. There is real history and there is a mythical retelling of the story. Both are truth-filled but only the myth can continue to change lives and can stand the test of time to transmit that truth to future generations. Myth is “history + meaning” not “history - facts”.

Not all life-changing myths need a history behind them. Many fables and children’s stories inspired me. “The little train that could” inspired me and millions more to give our best. I could go on.

On “new creation:

What I hear you suggesting is that you have no clue what this “new creation” is, but you are very certain it is not what I suggest. That seems very divisive. Why can’t this new creation mean individual character change, social change, government change, national peace and justice, and environmental cleanup and renewal in real physical terms. You seem to be adverse to anyone attempting to describe what “new creation” is and how it could work. Why? If you have a better explanation then by all means please describe it. I don’t think it is fair to suggest that just because you can’t describe it that I can’t attempt to describe it and draw a clear direction about how to make it happen.