He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good

Andrew, I have followed the back and forth between you and kingjames1 and Peter Wilkinson, about whether God’s judgement is tied to particular times and places or whether there is any evidence for a final judgement that is supra historical. It is a discussion to which I am not able to make a contribution because I lack the depth of biblical knowledge that you three have.

However there is a point that I want to make or rather, repeat, since I have made it before. It concerns the view of God that underlies the discussion.

In your initiating post in the new thread you say

AD 70 was God’s final recompense for Israel’s persistent rebelliousness - not for the sins of all mankind.

The siege of Jerusalem in AD 70 inflicted huge casualties: according to Tacitius 1.1.million died, according to Josephus 600,000. The killing was carried out with great brutality and was accompanied by mass enslavements and depopulation of the land.

The debate in this thread has not concerned the God who could inflict the horrors of AD 70 but how it is to be interpreted: the recompense for Jewish rebelliousness or something more cosmic.

For me, the latter pales into insignificance besides the former. If God is responsible for AD 70 he is a monster, to be ranked alongside Pol Pot, Mao Zedong and Stalin. How can this God be compatible with

Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?" Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times Matthew 18:15-22

"You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbour and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

Matthew 5:43-45

Paul

Re: He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good

Paul, I fully accept the force of the moral problem you raise and I don’t have any straightforward answers to it. But here’s a few hasty thoughts.

I don’t think we should reinterpret the biblical notion of the wrath of God simply on the grounds that it appears morally repugnant. My view is that the narrative has to be understood first for what it is, and the idea of punishment for sin is so central to the Gospels - and to the biblical story as a whole - that we risk seriously distorting things if we try to neutralize it.

It has always been part of evangelical theology that ‘the wages of sin is death’. We have probably interpreted that on the whole in a rather abstract and anodyne fashion, but the Bible takes the fact of death very seriously. The destruction of Jerusalem and the slaughter of a million Jews was simply an outworking of that principle.

I tend to take a rather pragmatic approach to this issue. The given reality was that Israel was acting in a way that made war against Rome an increasingly likely outcome. Jesus’ prophetic response to that was to interpret Israel’s behaviour as an example of a longstanding habit of rebellion against YHWH and the foreseen outcome as an expression of YHWH’s frustration with his people. But morally speaking, the historical reality comes first and demands to be interpreted within a theological framework.

The moral problem is there anyway. God is at fault either because he deliberately brought about the death of a million Jews in the war or because he didn’t intervene to prevent the death of a million Jews - or the Holocaust, or whatever other catastrophe we may have in mind.

I think this is compatible with the call to love one’s enemies in this way. If Israel had acted as Jesus required the disciples to act, the war against Rome would not have happened. It is because Israel as a nation did not ‘love its enemies’ but recklessly rebelled against Rome that it incurred the concrete, historical ‘wrath’ of God.

Re: He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good

Your question is very relevant, Paul, and as Andrew has suggested, raises the wider issue of theodicy: for which, if there was a simple answer, we would no doubt all by now be able to produce it.

However, A.D.70 was more than a failure of God to intervene in a catastrophe: it was a judgment (Luke 21:22). So the first question is: does God have a right to judge, or to inflict punishment? The answer depends on a number of factors: our understanding of the guilt of the guilty party; our apprehension of sin in the light of God’s holiness; our philosophical or moral sense that justice requires the application of sanctions - and so on. The answer will also depend on our sense of God’s right to judge; and perhaps more importantly, our willingness to trust him that when he judges, it is in accordance with principles of perfect fairness, and a preference to show mercy where it is possible and wise to do so.

A further factor will be the extent to which those incurring judgment had received sufficient warning of what was to come. A rather simple illustration might be that if I am driving in my car at night, and I see a warning that the road ahead has subsided and gives way directly onto a sheer cliff, I would be foolhardy to proceed any further. Had Israel been given sufficient warning of what lay ahead? I think so - both explicitly (in the direct warnings Jesus gave of imminent disaster), and implicitly - in the call Jesus brought to Israel to repent and believe in him - language which, as Andrew would no doubt wish to point out, has in the 1st century a direct, practical and political application - meaning give up your own agenda for political and religious change, and follow mine. (Josephus used precisely this language when commissioned by Rome to subdue rebellious brigands in Israel shortly after the time of Jesus). Everyone in Israel must have heard about Jesus. Most people must have had the opportunity of finding out about him and his message. Not to have responded, and thus be spared disaster, would have made the individual or group responsible for what befell them.

A further point concerns the nature of judgment. We tend to think of judgment as something coming supernaturally into the natural realm, cutting across natural or human processes. But that isn’t how the bible presents it. Usually, judgment rides on the back of natural processes of cause and effect - especially human, moral cause and effect. It could be argued that the disasters consequent upon climate change are a judgment of God on us for failing to care for each other and look after his planet. (I say ‘could be argued’). But the processes leading to climate disaster would largely have been the consequence of human activity (if you believe in this explanation of global warming). Failing to be loyal to YHWH in the OT rendered Israel vulnerable to her enemies and oppressors. It was, in a sense, a supernatural enforcement of a natural cause. And usually we get plenty of evidence in the prophets of warnings that this would be the case if Israel abandoned YHWH. Israel’s moral culpability lay in the things she did (or failed to do) during these periods of turning aside from loyalty. Social injustice was not least among these things.

It wasn’t as if YHWH reacted selfishly to Israel’s unfaithfulness - reacting out of spite, as it were. On Israel depended God’s plans for the whole world. Even in the OT there is plenty of evidence that God planned blessing for the entire world through Israel, and that Israel had developed a twisted sense of favouritism, and an expectation of domination of inferior peoples. Israel’s guilt in rejecting YHWH was therefore the greater, since her responsibility was greater. Beyond this was a pursuit of political courses of action which invited trouble from larger and more powerful nations than herself - in the deluded belief that God’s favour would provide all the protection she needed.

It is therefore possible to argue that Israel set herself up for judgment by actions which were almost directly calculated to bring disaster on her - without any added supernatural layer of enforcement. This is particularly the case in AD 70 - when Israel’s national agenda was not only contrary to God’s agenda - but involved political activity of an extremely provocative and foolhardy nature. But AD 70 goes much further than that: as Jesus’s ‘woes’ of Matthew 23 indicated - Matthew 23:35-36 being the overall climax and summary. But we must read on: Jesus’s reaction to this coming catastrophe was not one of wrathful satisfaction - but heartbreak and yearning - Matthew 23:37. And because, contra Andrew, Jesus had demonstrated in himself consistently and repeatedly through symbol and praxis his divine origins and credentials, we must believe that he was reflecting in this response the very heart of God. Which places judgment in a very different perspective from talking of it as a detached, abstract philosophical issue.

This final issue is, for me, the clincher. God’s ‘wrath’ seems to be attended by a great deal of heartbreak. At the risk of trivialising it, it’s like the schoolteacher who says, when about to administer punishment to the recalcitrant pupil, ‘This is going to hurt me more than it hurts you’. How much it hurt God can be gauged by the price paid for that punishment to be averted for those who turned to him. Guess what that was.

Re: He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good

Peter and Andrew

Thanks for your responses.

The issue is: what understanding of God is forced on us by the interpretation of the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 as God’s judgement on sinful Israel.

Your two posts raise these questions

1. What was Israel’s sin that produced this action by God?

2. Was the sin deliberate?

3. Was the punishment simply the natural consequences of the sin?

4. How does the punishment cohere with what Jesus says about forgiveness and his willingness to intervene in the affairs of nations? (this is my question rather than yours)

The sin….

Andrew says

The sin was that Israel was acting in a way that made war against Rome an increasingly likely outcome. Jesus’ prophetic response to that was to interpret Israel’s behaviour as an example of a longstanding habit of rebellion against YHWH and the foreseen outcome as an expression of YHWH’s frustration with his people

….was the sin deliberate?

Peter points out that Jesus warned Israel what would be the consequences of their rebellion so the sin was a deliberate one

Had Israel been given sufficient warning of what lay ahead? I think so - both explicitly (in the direct warnings Jesus gave of imminent disaster), and implicitly - in the call Jesus brought to Israel to repent and believe in him……Most people must have had the opportunity of finding out about him and his message. Not to have responded, and thus be spared disaster, would have made the individual or group responsible for what befell them.

Was the punishment simply the natural consequence of the sin?

Peter says that punishment of sin in the bible is usually just the natural outworking of the sinful act itself- so God did not actually have to do anything but just let Israel reap the consequences of its own actions.

Failing to be loyal to YHWH in the OT rendered Israel vulnerable to her enemies and oppressors. It was, in a sense, a supernatural enforcement of a natural cause. Peter here draws a comparison with global warming as the consequence of humanity’s failure to properly look after the planet.

My response

It has always puzzled me why, if Jesus was promoting the cause of Jahweh, he should have interpreted the willingness of some of the Jewish people to take up arms against Rome as part of a “longstanding habit of rebellion against YHWH”. Jahweh was a warrior God who killed those who opposed or disobeyed him without compunction and who encouraged the Jews to similar murderous violence; and this continued to be celebrated in the psalms and elsewhere in the Jewish scriptures in the long dark age of Jahweh’s absence after the Babylonian captivity.

If Jesus was doing the work of Jahweh he should have been delighted that some of the Jews were willing to use violence against the Romans.

Secondly, if the taking up arms against an oppressor was wrong for the Jews in AD 70, then it must be wrong in all similar circumstances. Were the American colonists wrong to take up arms against King George; was the 1944 attempt on Hitler’s life, in which Dietrich Bonhoeffer participated, also wrong; were the Poles wrong to rise up against the Nazis? Are those who did so subject to judgement by God?

There is a minority opinion among Christians that armed resistance is never justified; but most believe there are occasions when it is not only justified but obligatory.

In summary it is hard to see how Jewish armed resistance to Roman oppression can be regarded as a sin if what is at issue is Jahweh’s ethic; and, at least according to majority Christian opinion, it does not follow necessarily from what Jesus taught either.

If armed oppression was not a sin, then the question raised by Peter, whether it was deliberate, does not come into play. However I offer the following comment. A million Jews-men, women and children- were killed in the siege of Jerusalem. It is impossible to believe that they all knew what Jesus had to say about violence eg the children would not have known. Of those who did know, it is reasonable to assume that there would have been honest differences of opinion (as there are today) about whether Jesus meant that armed resistance was always wrong or only wrong on some occasions.

Peter says that punishment of sin in the bible is usually just the natural outworking of the sinful act itself- so God did not actually have to do anything but just let Israel reap the consequences of its own actions.

I would question the claim that there is a ‘natural outworking’ connection between sin and punishment in the Bible. Usually, when Jahweh punishes, there is no internal connection between the form the punishment takes and the sin which occasions it. The most common sin in the Jewish scriptures is worship of Gods other than Jahweh and in that case the punishments inflicted (withdrawal of Jahweh’s assistance in defeating enemies, death etc) are quite different in kind from the sin.

The more important point about the relation between this sin and this punishment is that the punishment has exactly the same moral defect as the sin: God punishes the Jews’ predilection for violence by bringing down violence upon them. It is like the father who thrashes his son for hitting his little sister.

Andrew says

I don’t think we should reinterpret the biblical notion of the wrath of God simply on the grounds that it appears morally repugnant. My view is that the narrative has to be understood first for what it is, and the idea of punishment for sin is so central to the Gospels - and to the biblical story as a whole - that we risk seriously distorting things if we try to neutralize it.

I agree entirely that the text must be allowed to speak and that there should be no attempt to bowdlerise it. I also accept the centrality of the notion of sin and punishment. The question is whether these notions are the same in the Jewish and Christian scriptures; and how God’s forgiveness is seen in each.

Jesus is a God who washes the feet of his disciples, goes to death as a criminal, declines to use force against those who seek to kill him, spars with (rather than destroying) Satan in the desert, mixes with outcasts, demands unlimited forgiveness of those who injure us, tells us to love our enemies without hope of reward.

Can this be the same God who engineers the death of a million Jews because they had followed, until the arrival of Jesus, Jahweh’s normal policy of violence against enemies?

As regards Andrew’s point that we should (not) reinterpret the biblical notion of the wrath of God simply on the grounds that it appears morally repugnant the charge I make is that if God killed a million Jews- men women and children- as a judgement on them for sin he is a monster. If we are led to this view by a particular interpretation of the scriptures then it seems to me there is a pressing need to reinterpret something: one possibility is to reinterpret the “wrath of God”; if the text will not let us do that, then, I would suggest, so much the worse for the text. It is better to see the text as fallible than to accept that God is a monster.

Paul

Re: He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good

Paul - as ever, your posts are stimulating and full of interest. You ask:

1. What was Israel’s sin that produced this action by God?

2. Was the sin deliberate?

3. Was the punishment simply the natural consequences of the sin?

My point - not mentioned in your reply, though alluded to in terms of general principles discussed, was that the Jewish Wars of AD 66-70 were as much a course of action taken by Israel as a judgment from YHWH. Even if YHWH had not been involved, it would have been reckless and foolhardy to oppose the might of Rome. The judgment of YHWH was more in the sense that he did not intervene to help Israel than that he directly inflicted punishment on them.

I would have thought it was serious enough to ignore Jesus’s warnings and reject the agenda he was presenting to Israel - which was YHWH’s agenda - and do the opposite. However, the situation goes further. Also not mentioned in your response is the reference I made to Matthew 23 - verses 30-32 in particular. It wasn’t just the sin of Israel now that was in view - but the accumulation of sins which had characterised Israel’s history, as reflected in her treatment of the prophets and messengers God had sent her. The supreme hypocrisy of Israel was her latterday reverence for the tombs of the prophets, while the message of the prophets had been ignored and the bearers of the message had frequently been persecuted and murdered. Jesus says: “So you testify against yourselves that you are descendants of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up therefore the measure of the sin of your forefathers!” - Matthew 23:30.

The overarching issue for Israel was not a single act of disobedience to do with the Romans, but an accumulation of disobedience in her history which was about to reach its climax.

The central issue for Israel at the time of Jesus was not how to get rid of the Roman oppressors per se, but forgiveness of sins (the absence of), which was reflected in a continuing exile (in the main) of her people from the land, continuing absence of YHWH from the temple (there wasn’t even a proper temple), and in latterday terms, the Spirit not poured out, the resurrection of the {righteous) dead not having occurred, and that there was no heir of David on the throne, no messiah to do battle on Iarael’s behalf.

Despite rigorous application of the covenantal requirements by the Pharisees (and even they majored on the minors and failed to apply the major principles of the law), the breaches of the covenant in her history continued to stand against Israel. The former ways in which YHWH had acted on behalf of his people could no longer apply until these had been fully addressed. In the 200 years preceding Jesus, some of these realities had already been recognised by Israel in her writings, and in the time of Jesus and immediately following, anyone with any serious eye on Israel’s history would have known that an uprising against Rome was defying not only God’s agenda, but all known laws of political reality and common sense.

I don’t think these arguments will convince you, however, since your central objection seems to be to a God who will condone violence as a tool of judgment. Again, I argue that things are not so simple - and again, you have not responded to the point I made about this. Much of the violence Israel suffered was either brought upon herself in a cause/effect manner (and this is especially true of the AD 70 events), or a principle operated, that where Israel herself condoned violence and injustice, greater violence and injustice was unleashed on her through her enemies. (You object to this as a principle). But my central point, to which you have not referred, is that judgment through violence was not God’s preferred means of operating, and was, in a sense, a resignation to patterns of behaviour which Israel was herself deploying. The actual response of YHWH can be seen in Jesus’s response to the judgment he was invoking on the Pharisees in Matthew 23:37-39. This tone of supreme regret can be seen throughout the OT narrative, if you look carefully. Is it possible to judge, and be angry even, and at the same time regret? Yes, I think it is - but only with great inner turmoil and conflict. That is precisely what we see in YHWH in the OT.

The supreme reflection of the cost to God of his response to Israel’s disobedience, and humanity at large, is of course seen in the cross. In the end, God took on himself, arguably, far more suffering than Israel and mankind had endured as a consequence of their own actions - not his, and their stubborn refusal to respond to his entreaties to draw them back to himself and his ways.

I suspect that we are unlikely to agree in these exchanges whilst there remains a fundamental difference in the assumptions we bring to the discussion. I am interested in exploring a justification of YHWH and his activities as reflected in the OT & NT. You are far more impressed by what appear to be outrages he has committed against an apparently vulnerable humanity. The essence of my argument is that humanity is not quite so vulnerable as it would appear, and that while the innocent do suffer in YHWH’s universe, in the case of many, and your case and mine in particular, that does not apply.

Re: He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good

Peter

You make the point that

the Jewish Wars of AD 66-70 were as much a course of action taken by Israel as a judgment from YHWH. Even if YHWH had not been involved, it would have been reckless and foolhardy to oppose the might of Rome. The judgment of YHWH was more in the sense that he did not intervene to help Israel than that he directly inflicted punishment on them.

Your approach here seems to reflect an ambivalence about the extent of Jahweh’s culpability for AD 70: you are suggesting that Jahweh did not engineer the slaughter but simply let nature takes its course without intervening. It’s the difference in legal terms between murder and reckless indifference: a person who murders another bears a higher burden of guilt than one who fails to prevent the death of someone when she could have done so.

If so, it does relieve Jahweh of some of the responsibility but an awful lot of responsibility remains.

You also expand the notion of the sin for which AD 70 is the punishment

It wasn’t just the sin of Israel now that was in view - but the accumulation of sins which had characterised Israel’s history, as reflected in her treatment of the prophets and messengers God had sent her.

This looks like a defence against my objection to Andrew’s argument that Jesus interpreted the willingness of some of the Jewish people to take up arms against Rome as part of a “longstanding habit of rebellion against YHWH”. As I noted, this is hard to understand – indeed I would say, inexplicable- given that Jahweh was a warrior God who killed those who opposed or disobeyed him without compunction and who encouraged the Jews to similar murderous violence.

If I am right about this, then clearly use of force against Roman oppression cannot be seen as a sin justifying AD 70 and Israel’s previous history of sin has to be brought into play.

I think it is very important to get clear about this. While the above comment looks like acceptance of my objection you say later on

in the time of Jesus and immediately following, anyone with any serious eye on Israel’s history would have known that an uprising against Rome was defying … God’s agenda.

I look forward to hearing your position on this but in the interim I offer the following comment about your suggestion that AD 70 was also punishment for Israel’s accumulated sins of the past.

The dominant interpretation in the scriptures of Jahweh’s absence from Israel after the Babylonian captivity, and his abandonment of it to foreign oppression, was that it was punishment for its sin, especially worship of other Gods. However as the decades turn into centuries there are a number of indications in the scriptures, especially Isaiah, that Jahweh feels the Jews have suffered enough and that the punishment should come to an end.

How does your interpretation of AD 70, as yet a further bout of punishment for sin, sit with such texts?

You say

I don’t think these arguments will convince you, however, since your central objection seems to be to a God who will condone violence as a tool of judgment.

Your point is correct. There are several reasons I do not think God will condone violence as a tool of judgment.

Firstly, as I said in my previous post the Christian scriptures teach me that Jesus is a God who washes the feet of his disciples, goes to death as a criminal, declines to use force against those who seek to kill him, spars with (rather than destroying) Satan in the desert, mixes with outcasts, demands unlimited forgiveness of those who injure us, tells us to love our enemies without hope of reward.

Having been thus tutored I cannot believe that God will engineer the death of a million Jews as a tool of judgement.

In addition to that, if God intervenes in the affairs of nations to exercise his justice, why does he allow evils like Auschwitz to occur? This question is unanswerable unless, in Simone Weil’s words, we see God coming into the world as a beggar, a God who wields no earthly power beyond the power of love.

Peter, the conclusion to which I find myself increasingly propelled is that the New Testament only in part reflects the spirit and words of Christ; that there are other parts of it which are an undigested remnant of the bellicose and vengeful God of the Jewish scriptures.

Paul

Re: He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good

Paul - you made the point:

” … as the decades turn into centuries there are a number of indications in the scriptures, especially Isaiah, that Jahweh feels the Jews have suffered enough and that the punishment should come to an end.

How does your interpretation of AD 70, as yet a further bout of punishment for sin, sit with such texts?”

My view is quite conventional, which is that the prophecies of Isaiah of forgiveness of sins and future blessing were fulfilled in Jesus, and those who followed him (all of whom were, initially, Jews). But Israel’s rebellion against YHWH, in the main, persisted. It would be culpable of him to abrogate justice, simply because he felt like it. Israel had continued to suffer because she had continued to rebel. That was no less the case in the 1st century.

However, the operation of judgment is not a simple matter - and as pointed out, all the initiatives were taken by Israel in the Jewish Wars, not YHWH, or even Rome. Our attitude to judgment also depends a great deal on our attitude to the Judge - about which I offered various suggestions, which you don’t seem to have taken into account - not least that he suffered as much if not more than those who bore his judicial penalties.

Re: He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good

I haven’t time to do justice to your discussion, but if you can make anything of my two cents, go ahead…

My understanding of judgement is predicated upon the idea that, principally, it is a matter of God giving us up to what we have chosen to give our allegiance.

This “giving up” or “giving over” is inevitably preceded by prophetic warnings and always in the context of covenental relationship.

Thus to make a leap from judgement in the context of Israel to global warming, for example, is, I would have thought, as potentially awkward to justify as some of the wild claims made about AIDS and homosexuals.

Ethics are inevitably contextual, however, hard we try to avoid it.

I tried to explore this line of thinking a little in this earlier post, written following the tsunami and some claims then made that it represented one of God’s judgement…

Ok two cents worth… time up.

shalom! - john (eternalpurpose.org.uk)

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