The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments
In 10 principles for reading the Bible in a postmodern context, Andrew proposes that contributors to an emerging post-evangelical theology adopt Principle 2 - "Let’s pretend it’s not inerrant." He suggests that we "set aside claims to the predetermined inerrancy and sanctity of the Bible, at least insofar as such claims force upon us standards of truthfulness that conflict with criteria of thought that we are not prepared to abandon in other areas of discourse (scientific, historical, literary, social, etc.)." Adopting Principle 2 "allows us to read the Bible as the unbeliever reads it; it helps to defamiliarise the Bible for us, which will be an essential aspect of the deconstruction process…" In the Genesis 1 as True Myth post we’ve been trying to make literal sense of the Biblical creation narratives. What if instead we were to read Genesis 1-3 in light of Principle 2? Certain features of the Biblical creation story read like a fairy tale. Snakes probably didn’t lose their legs because their crafty primal ancestor tempted Eve in the Garden. It’s unlikely that either eternal life or the knowledge of good and evil could be attained by eating fruit from specific trees. It’s implausible that the first woman was formed from a rib bone extracted from the first man. We can’t know for sure whether the original tellers of these tales believed their literal historicity. It does seem likely, though, that they would have wondered about why and how things came to be the way they were. The Scriptural cosmogonies might be regarded as thought experiments, speculations about how the present reality might have emerged out of some hypothetical past reality. Why do people just seem to hate snakes? That’s a pretty good question, but it’s not nearly as compelling as some of the other questions implicitly posed in Genesis 1-3. Why is there something instead of nothing, and why does it seem to organize itself so conveniently into light and darkness, earth and sky and sea? We humans are impressive, nearly godlike in our ability to create things and to understand right and wrong. But we die like beasts instead of living eternally like gods — why? And knowing the good doesn’t seem to translate into doing the good, rather than the merely desirable or expedient — why not? Other questions implicit in the text don’t come as readily to our minds. Is there one god in Genesis 1-3, or many? Do these gods transcend time and space, or are they corporeal beings who emerge out of the formless void? When Yahweh tells Adam that he will surely die on the day he eats of the tree, is this a threat or a warning? When Yahweh says that "the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil," do the gods wish they’d never acquired this knowledge either? Must the gods also eat from the tree of life in order to stay alive? Genesis 1-3 doesn’t answer any of these questions. Maybe they too were matters of speculation among early theologians, subjects of thought experiments that were subsequently either resolved or abandoned. It’s readily acknowledged that the details of Genesis 1 creation don’t easily match up with the Genesis 2-3 story. Many such stories may have been told among the ancient Semitic tribes, and for some reason only these two wound up in the Canon. Other cultures have asked many of the same questions; their thought experiments generated answers that are both similar to and different from the ones recorded in the Bible creation narratives. It’s become nearly untenable to read Genesis 1 as a literal account of how the material universe came into existence. Whatever existed or happened prior to the formation of the current universe, astrophysicists are unlikely to discard the theory that it expanded rapidly from a Big Bang and gradually organized itself into stars, galaxies, and planets. Evolutionary theory undergoes continual revision, but it’s extremely unlikely that the theory itself - gradual genetic change across multiple generations predicated on random variation and environmental adaptability - is going to be debunked or overthrown by a radically different scientific paradigm. Ethologists and psychologists are identifying ways in which language, fabrication of tools, even morality may have evolved from more primitive related capacities in other primates. In short, the Biblical thought experimenters’ speculations about the beginning were almost surely wrong. Suppose, in keeping with Andrew’s Principle 2, the emerging church were to acknowledge what is most likely the case; namely, that Genesis 1-3 are myths in the usual sense of the term: works of individual or collective imagination, speculative attempts to explain mysteries in the absence of adequate information. Does this acknowledgment push the post-evangelicals down the slippery slope to liberalism and agnosticism? Does it open the possibility of dialog with skeptics for whom belief in the creation narratives constitutes an unjustifiable abrogation of scientific truth? |
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Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments
I’ve been having a vigorous exchange of views with Mike Macon on his blog about John’s use of Principle 2. I’ll admit to getting rather too worked up by these conversations, but I do think that they’re important.
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'story' as thought experiments
John, in regard to your statement:
“Suppose, in keeping with Andrew’s Principle 2, the emerging church were to acknowledge what is most likely the case; namely, that Genesis 1-3 are myths in the usual sense of the term: works of individual or collective imagination, speculative attempts to explain mysteries in the absence of adequate information.”
I like what you have to say, but I wonder if the emerging church perspective should even be approached as you suggest. In other words, to decipher what is factual or nonfactual in regard to Genesis 1-3 seems more of a modernist experiment, whereas the emphasis on narrative apart from ‘claim’ investigation is more post.
I suppose an example might be in hearing one of Jesus’ parables, the recipients probably didn’t question if the parable was true in a factual sense, but rather, the questions were about how the parable is to be understood. the discussion is still about truth… but the supposition derives from a different framework.
just some thoughts…
vapor
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Re: 'story' as thought experiments
when discussing plato (whose writings he had spent his life studying and teaching) derrida would always say that reading him was “always before me”, a task yet to be done, never one having been accomplished.
this article gives us (for whom familiarity has bred, if not outright contempt, certainly and unshockable complacency) a way of reading the text and having the text read us. it enables us to be shocked by the loose ends we always supposed were neatly tied. to be confounded, offended, challenged, changed.
as many more eloquent have noted before: scripture is not written as propositional statements, but (to borrow from martin amis) in “the slippery language of story”.
shane magee
director: fake
w: fakerepublic.com
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slippery slopes
There exists tremendous fear of sliding down slowly and surely all the way to hell. It is a very powerful fear indeed and speaks volumes for the intellectual insecurity and unbelief of the proponenets. It speaks too of what we have reduced "Christian Ministry" to.
Nonetheles, many millions of us Christians seem to have decided that it’s safer to shut off our minds than to ultimately trust God and the blood of Jesus and the advocacy and help of the Holy Spirit to get us to heaven. Indeed it is even feared that God will suddenly change His mind, get angry, and consign us to hell or worse, to whatever netherworld is reserved for the backslidden.
Given that this fear is actively propagated by those who cynically use it as the main platform of their "ministries" I don’t think that discussions will be immediately fruitful, still, I do believe that we are obligated to engage in discussion, at least from the hope that fellowship can be established and perhaps even strengthened.
Increasingly I am coming to the conclusion, in my own eccentric style, that we are never in any position to make the believer vs. nonbeliever distinction. That privilege (if it exists at all) would have to be God’s.
Then, you also bring up the fascinating question of perspective. It is ordinarily difficult for us to be aware of the structure of our own biases, worldviews, and interactive patterns, while reading any text. To be able to change ones perspective, even theoretically-temporarily, does demand a certain amount of self awareness. It also demands that we develop a sensitivity to figuring out the same sort of things about the author’s, and other’s perpective. Examining a text from various angles, seeing how others with different sets of tools may view the text, and so on, would be very valuable if we were actually able to do this.
I suggest though that it’s a tall order, even for a scholar. The best that can be hoped for with the average sam is that I would inculcate a sensitivity to the fact that there are different legitimate perspectives ‘out there’ and that dialogue is needed for there to be understanding and that I must suspend my disbelief (in the other’s genuineness) and mu innate suspiciousness, at least until I reach a better understanding of how ‘they’ got to where they are at.
I might even, in the intervening period, pehaps find that the other also has struggles that I can identify with, and perhaps without my even wanting to, we may become friends who agree to disagree, but still uphold one another as we walk towards wherever God is taking us, together.
Live to serve : Serve to live
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Re: Christ as mediator and firstborn of creation
John, beginning with the beginning, what would be lost with the first three chapters of Genesis is preciseley the beginning of the story. It seems strange that you are particular about these first three chapters, why not the 4th, 5th… Seems to me that if one wants to say that it’s a fictional story, the sensible thing to do will be to declare it all fictional until proven otherwise and take the bible as primarily a story about God and His people.
The fact is that there is no proof that Moses or Joshua, or David, or Solomon existed any more than there is that Eve or Adam were historical figures.
Live to serve : Serve to live
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Re: Is Christ eternally human?
Interesting questions.
John says that the Word was with God and was God in the beginning, and that the Word “became flesh and dwelt among us” This passage suggests that Christ’s “wordness” is eternal from the beginning but his “fleshness” began at a particular moment in history. The incarnation was foreknown before the foundations of the world (Eph. 1:4, I Peter 1:20), but before the actual 1st century events the person of Christ must have been something other than flesh and blood.
I agree. I think there is a difference between the pre-incarnate logos and the flesh, the soul, that logos became in the first century, Jesus.
If Christ is inseparably both man and God, the incarnation event must have changed the eternal Christ in essence.
Was Jesus eternally inseparably both man and God? I don’t think so.
But how could that be the case if Christ is God and God is eternally the same? Did the eternal God in effect “possess” the body of Jesus, thereby transforming and eternalizing that body and merging it with eternal God-ness? And if the incarnation permanently fused God and man in the person of Christ, is it accurate to say that God suffered in the flesh and died on the cross?
I think it is more accurate to say that God’s son, who is in effect God in the flesh, suffered on the cross.
Your questions were very complicated and thought provoking, so I’m afraid my small answers are not that great. Can anyone else add some thoughts?
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Re: Is Christ eternally human?
I agree that the questions raised are interesting and thought provoking, and I assert that the thinking provoked has been mostly already been done by others.
I venture to guess that there is no question raised that can be answered on any other basis than faith.
So, pick your mental torment.
Moltmann says that God died on the Cross. It is consistent with his notion of a triune God. Does that mean that the Holy Spirit also died on the Cross? Were there three days, therefore, when the world, the universe was without God? I wonder.
Please do not read into these comments any cynicism. It is always hard to tell mental states of people posting on the internet. I offer the comments humbly and without agenda.
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Re: Is Christ eternally human?
John, I’ve been feeling a bit at sea with this discussion precisely because you have been revisiting premodern and modern theological speculations. Most of what was considered Christian Theology, especially anything smacking of being systematic has rightly been pulled onto the carpet for a closer look by our postmodern selves.
In fact there are large swathes of scripture (not just the creation stories) that can be happily jettisoned if what one is after is to retain an orthodox sort of theology. Such theological speculation has always been about using prooftexts as props with utter disregard for chronicity or context.
Live to serve : Serve to live
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Re: Is Christ eternally human?
Enarchay says, “God’s son, who is in effect God in the flesh, suffered on the cross.” If God suffered in the flesh, did God also die in the flesh? In Christianity God is triune, so even if God died in his incarnate form He wouldn’t have died altogether — the Father and Spirit would have carried on. And Christ was resurrected, so he didn’t stay dead.
I think of the logos made flesh, the soul, Jesus, dying, but not God (independent of flesh) himself dying.
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Re: narratives and propositions
A new struggle emerges around propositionizing versus narrativizing truth. Divisiveness isn’t escapable. Contention only shifts around different topics and gives form to different readings and constructions of faith, church and God.
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Re: The Word as Creator
Does John’s reference to Christ as the Logos — the Word — rely on the Genesis creation narrative?
I think there is a connection other than just the word "logos" which itself is not directly equivalent to God;s sayings in the creation. Jesus is specifically linked to and made the instrumentality of the creation with the logos concept: "all things were made by him and without him was not any thing made that was made" and that certainly does ‘rely’ on Genesis 1 while at the same time reinterpreting the act of creation.
The other remarkable coincidence is the use of "light" and "life" and again, John freely reinterprets in a Targumic style both contemporising and effectively using the logos concept (whatever it is) to organically link Christ back to before the beginning of Genesis 1. There certainly are strong and deliberate echoes of Genesis in John’s Prologue and I think that a lot of the depth of meaning that is there in these few verses comes from the linkages with the creation account.
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John 1:1c - "a god."
Dear Mr. Doyle,
With respect to your comment:
“John doesn’t use an indefinite article here — ‘the Word was a God;’…again, if John meant that the Word was A god, why not use the indefinite article?”
The answer to this is simple: Within the Greek of this period (Koine), there was no such thing as an “indefinite article.” Therefore, John could have never utilized any “indefinite article” because there was none.
You then say:
“Some commentators suggest that, without the article, a noun carries adjectival meaning: ‘the Word was divine.’ But there is an adjectival form in Greek, so why didn’t John just use that?”
Perhaps one of the most important things to keep in mind is this: Because most all scholars recognize John’s opening word’s there as poetry, when considering the phrasing of a poet - how they may choose their words and the ways is which they express poetic ideas - is never considered to be governed by the common laws of language. Therefore, whether John had, at his disposal, any other Greek word to utilize is, in my view (and most any language teacher), irrelevant. Furthermore, simple nouns can be use as adjectives.
As for you statement:
“On the other hand, the absence of the definite article might mean nothing in particular.”
Actually, if we did not have some specific examples of the exact same Greek syntax, that is, as is found in John 1:1c (‘a singular anarthrous predicate noun preceding the verb and subject noun, implied or stated,’ and not just that the noun theos in the third clause lacks the Greek definite article), your point would be valid. The fact is, we do.
For other examples of the very same Greek construction I would invite your examination of the few following verses, that is, within your own preferred translation of the Bible and see whether, in order to complete the proper sense of the phrase, the translators had inserted the English indefinite article (either an “a” or “an”) there:
Mark 6:49
Mark 11:32
John 4:19
John 6:70
John 8:44a
John 8:44b
John 9:17
John 10:1
John 10:13
John 10:33
John 12:6
At each of the above verses, it should be noticed that identity of the one being discussed was not at issue; no, but rather, the class of the individual was. Therefore, you are likely to find that, within most English language Bible translations, scholars do typically reflect their appreciation of the use of such nouns by either inserting an “a” or “an” there.
But now, when it comes to John 1:1, rather than let God’s Word speak for itself, Trinitarian influenced scholars seem to forget their own guidelines in such sentence constructions and allow their preconceived theological bias to guide them in their translation of this verse - thus, in fitting with their own ideology, we more commonly read, “and the Word was God.”
Perhaps it would interest you (and others here) to know that, when translating John 1:1c during the first few centuries after Christianity had begun, two of the earliest Christian translations of the Greek ‘New Testament’ into a foreign language had utilized their indefinite article there as well; and again, all in order to complete the proper sense of the phrase - thus, with both reading, “and the Word was a god.”
For this, please examine the contents of the following link:
http://nwtandcoptic.blogspot.com/2006/09/john-11c-word-was-god.html
Furthermore, as even you had pointed out, “Maybe, as mediator between God and man, the Word [Jesus] stands on the side of man looking toward God. Toward may also imply movement: the Word [Jesus] as mediator brings man toward God.” Yes, because we had already been told that Jesus “stands on the side of man looking toward God,” and that, “as mediator [Jesus] brings man toward God,” we should naturally conclude that Jesus cannot be the same person he was just said to be “with”; or, in your words, “toward.”
Now, concerning your use of the term “orthodox,” perhaps this might be of interest:
“It is only assumption,…that universality and ubiquity are made the tests of religious doctrine. No universality or ubiquity can make that divine which never was such. It is mere prejudice of veneration for antiquity, and the imposing aspect of an unanimous acquiescence (if unanimous it really be) which makes us regard that as truth which comes so recommended to us. Truth is rather the attribute of the few than the many. The real church of God may be the small remnant, scarcely visible amidst the mass of surrounding professors. Who, then, shall pronounce any thing to be divine truth, simply because it has the marks of having been generally or universally received among men?”
Hampden, Renn Dickson (b.1763-d.1868), D.D., Regis Professor of Divinity at Oxford. “Bampton Lectures.” Annual. (Oxford, England: Oxford University, 1833), p. 356. BR45 .B3 / sv87-025507.
I thank you and all for your consideration.
Agape, Alan.
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http://www.goodcompanionbooks.com
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Re: John 1:1c - "a god."
Dear Mr. Doyle,
The following observation may prove quite interesting:
“The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.…it is not directly and immediately the word of God.”
Taken from: “The New Catholic Encyclopedia.” Prepared by an Editorial Staff at the Catholic University of America, Washington, D.C. (New York, New York: McGraw-Hill, 1967-c1989), vol. XIV [14], p. 299 (italics theirs). BX841 .N44 1967 / 66-022292.
In my view, the import of this statement becomes all the more significant when we appreciate the fact that “the Apostolic Fathers” are those who were said to have lived during or close to the same time period as the Apostles themselves – perhaps, with even some of them having been taught by them as well.
Therefore, if among the writings of “the Apostolic Fathers” “there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective,” and, especially, for this teaching to not have ever been a part of the Christian “profession of faith,” that is, as expressed within any Christian ‘declaration of belief’ until the end of the 4th century, then, surely, this would, in my view, unequivocally substantiate the fact that neither the Apostles nor any of the earliest of Christians had ever believed and/or been taught any such radically new concept about God.
In line with the above, might I also suggest consideration of the contents within the following two links:
“Some Interesting Observations About the Trinity, Perhaps Not So Commonly Known”
http://www.geocities.com/goodcompanionbooks/Some_Interesting_Observations.html
Some Powerful Reasoning’s About the Trinity, Not So Easily Dismissed”
http://www.geocities.com/goodcompanionbooks/Some_Powerful_Reasonings.html
~~~~~~~~~~~
Agape, Alan.
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http://www.goodcompanionbooks.com
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Re: John 1:1c - "a god."
Dear Mr. Doyle,
With regard to your quote of Zerwick, it may interest you to know that, within "Appendix 6A Jesus-A Godlike One; Divine," of Jehovah’s Witnesses’ New World Translation, 1984 Edition, they explain much the same as Zerwick above:
~~~~~
John 1:1 – "and the Word was a god (godlike; divine)"
Gr[eek], kai the ·os’ en ho lo’gos
"…the Greek word the ·os’ is a singular predicate noun occurring before the verb and is not preceded by the definite article. This is an anarthrous the ·os’. The God with whom the Word, or Logos, was originally is designated here by the Greek expression ho the ·os’, that is, the ·os’ preceded by the definite article ho. This is an articular the ·os’. Careful translators recognize that the articular construction of the noun points to an identity, a personality, whereas a singular anarthrous predicate noun preceding the verb points to a quality about someone. Therefore, John’s statement that the Word or Logos was "a god" or "divine" or "godlike" does not mean that he was the God with whom he was. It merely expresses a certain quality about the Word, or Logos, but it does not identify him as one and the same as God himself."
Taken from: The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures. Revised Edition, 1984. (Brooklyn, New York: Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, Brooklyn, 1984), p. 1519. BS195 .N4 1984 / 84-191013. 1984.
The same point is made within their "Reasoning" book:
"The definitive article (the) appears before the first occurrence of theos (God) but not before the second. The articular (when the article appears) construction of the noun points to an identity, a personaltiy, whereas a singular anarthrous (without the article) predicate noun before the verb (as the sentence is constructed in the Greek [of John 1:1]) points to a quality about someone. So the text is not saying that the Word (Jesus) was the same as the God with whom he was but, rather, that the Word was godlike, divine, a god."
Taken from: Reasoning from the Scriptures. 1st Edition. (Brooklyn, New York: Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, International Bible Students Association, c1985, 1989), pp. 212, 213. BS612 .R43 1985 / 85198803.
Agape, Alan.
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Re: John 1:1c - "a god."
The question is not whether there is good reason to believe (which there is) that there is a distinction between “the God” (i.e. the Father) and the Logos (i.e. Jesus), but whether the Father and Jesus are both equally divine. The normative predicate would suggest Jesus shares the quality of the Father’s divinity. The author of ntgreek.org comments, “In other words, contrary to the thought that ‘since there is no definite article used here it could belittle the fact of the Word being God’, the fact that the word ‘God’ is used first in the sentence actually shows some emphasis that this Logos (Word) was in fact God in its nature. However, since it does not have the definite article, it does indicate that this Word was not the same ‘person’ as the Father God, but has the same ‘essence’ and ‘nature’.”
On the other hand, to take the presence and lack of articles and run with them and claim Jesus is “a god” is to admit John was a polytheist. The doctrine of the Trinity makes sense of how there is one God and yet Jesus is divine. As John portrays Jesus saying, him and the Father are “one.”
N.T. Wright has said, by the time Paul starts writing, if the early Christians had not come up with the doctrine of the Trinity yet, they should have.
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Re: John 1:1c - "a god."
I would think that, in the context of monotheistic first century Israel, any thoughts of Jesus being divine would have seemed exceedingly strange, if not blasphemous.
Not exactly. N.T. Wright explains, “[In] second-Temple Judaism there were several quite sophisticated ways of speaking of the one God of Israel, the creator, and his close and complex relation to the world. Maintaining a firm hold on God’s transcendence and otherness on the one hand, while simultaneously wanting to express the nearness, love, and activity of this God within the world, many Jewish writings spoke of this in various ways which seemed to have been designed to safegaurd both the actuality of God’s activity and the fact that it was the same God, the creator, the transcendent one, who was acting. What we have in the New Testament, not entirely without precedent in Judaism but nowhere seen with anything like the prominence and emphasis the early Christians gave to it, is the messianic language of the king, seen as YHWH’s ‘son’, taken up and used as a vehicle in exactly the same way” (RSG, Wright 734).
Wright points to Philo, for example:
“Philo Conf. Ling. 62f., quoting Zech. 6.12, which Philo reads as ‘the man whose name is Rising [anatole’. ‘Strangest of titles,’ he comments, ‘if you suppose that a being composed of soul and body is here described. But if you suppose that it is that Incorporeal one, who differs not a whit from the divine image, you will agree that the name of ‘rising’ assigned to him quite truly describes him. For that man is the edlest son, whom the Father of all raised up [aneteile], and elsewhere calls him His first-born, and indeed the Son thus begotten followed the ways of his Father…’ (tr. Colson and Whitaker in LCL)” (Wright 734).
The idea of multiple persons participating in one being is a pretty abstract idea even in these postmodern times. Smart people who’ve not had extensive exposure to the “trinity theory” — e.g., Jews and Muslims — find it quite counter-intuitive.
It was not so odd in biblical times. We are told in Genesis Adam and Eve, two separate humans, make up “one flesh.” The Wisdom Solomon describes has part in creation. Jesus says he is “one” with the Father. John describes the logos as theos. I’m pretty sure; moreover, some Jews viewed the Torah as a divine emancipation.
For Wright to regard the trinitarian idea as so obvious that the first century Christians should have thought of it sounds rather anachronistic to me. A lot of ideas seem obvious after the fact — that’s one sign that it might be a good idea.
He lays it out, among other places, in Paul in Fresh Perspective. I’ll try to summarize the chapter I am referring to later.
In the meantime, here is a discussion between Wright and Dunn concerning Jesus’ divinity:
“[Wright:] I go back to that again and again: When we look for the self-consciousness of Jesus (and I’m aware of yards of books complaining about that phrasing), I believe, as a historian and as a Christian, that when Jesus came to Jerusalem on that last journey and told stories about a king or a master coming back to see what was going on and to judge people, what he had in mind was to explain what he was doing in coming at last to challenge Jerusalem and to explain it by means of telling stories about YHWH returning to Zion. In other words, as I think I say at one key point in the book (I’d love to know what Jimmy thinks of this), when you go back to the Exodus narratives, YHWH is there as a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night with the Israelites in the wilderness. Isaiah 40:5 says:
Then the glory of the LORD will be revealed,
And all flesh will see it together’ (NASB).
But it remains an open question as to what that’s going to look like. I believe, and have argued in detail, that Jesus believed that those prophecies of the return of YHWH, the glory of the Lord returning to Zion would not look like a whirlwind, a fire, Ezekiel’s dynamo picture, but would look like a young Jewish prophet riding in tears on a donkey and going off to have a last meal with his friends and die on a cross.
In other words, I think Jesus was telling stories about God coming back to explain his own return to Jerusalem. That’s where I find very deep and rich, and very, very high Christology in the mind of Jesus himself, which then gives me a bridge to understand all the other hints which have been picked up in other bits of the tradition. Jimmy himself would say, and has said, that you take a thing like Peter’s confession, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” I take it that means “You are the Messiah.” I don’t think that means “You’re the second person of the Trinity.” Now Matthew maybe already thinks that Peter said more than he knew, and by the time we get to Paul, Paul is construing it as a lot more. But just because I think that doesn’t mean that Jesus didn’t have that sense of his own identity. Jimmy, you might want to come in on this.
Dunn: Yes, there’s no doubt, I think, that from very early days, the first Christians were seeing God in Jesus, seeing Jesus as the human face of God, seeing Jesus as the one who shows them what God is like and all that. And the way in which already in Paul you have Jesus inserted into the Shema: ‘For us there is one God, the Father … and one Lord, Jesus Christ’ (1 Cor. 8:6, NRSV), and so on – that’s really very astonishing (‘An Evening Conversation on Jesus and Paul’).
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Re: Pauline sexism
John, I haven’t read the whole of this thread, so these comments may be missing the point in some way.
A key observation with respect to both the Genesis narrative and Paul’s use of it in 1 Timothy 2:11-15 is that Eve’s transgression is attributed not to some intrinsic flaw or failing in her but to the cunning of the deceiver. I suppose you could say that both the man and the woman, in their different, ways were susceptible to being misled and both were disobedient, but it is the cunning serpent who is basically blamed for the fiasco (Gen. 3:14).
I argued in Speaking of Women: Interpreting Paul that Paul’s main concern in 1 Timothy 2:11-15 is to restrict the disruptive influence of false teachers, who, it appears (cf. 2 Tim. 3:6-7), had the habit of insinuating themselves into homes by ‘seducing’ susceptible women. In a patriarchal culture that limited their education and exposure to the world, women were much more likely to be deceived. I see this passage as a rather pragmatic measure to keep things under control. He uses the Genesis text somewhat analogically and is careful not to ground this contingent ordering of things in a universal created condition.
The problem, as so often, is that we read these passages through the lenses of our modernist perspective on things. Genesis 2 wasn’t written to address the concerns of a vociferous and over-sensitive egalitarian culture. Yes, the man was formed first, and perhaps that reflects a patriarchal perspective, but the point is not to privilege the man but to highlight the deficiency of his solitary condition. ‘Helper’ does not make the the woman subordinate: the term suggests not the status of the helper but the insufficency of the one helped. The narrative culminates in a profound image of marital union as ‘one flesh’. This is what it is intended to safeguard.
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if only we had the data
We appear to be back to splitting almost nonexistent hairs. The data is so thin and so contradictory that remaining agnostic really does seemt to be the wiser alternative.
It’s an open question whether Paul is the author of 1Tim. Beyond this with an epistle it’s always wise to remember that we are probably hearing less than one half of a conversation. We do not know anything much about what question was raised nor about the situation within which ‘Paul’ gives his scintillating advice to ‘Timothy’.
If we jump to a school of Paul/diciple of Paul possibility it makes more sense for in many other places Paul (the original) is all for women preaching, teaching, leading and generally exercising whatever gifts they have for the benefit of the ekklesia.
On a more general note, i wonder why we feel that we have to reconcile all these little bits of info into some self-consistent whole? Aren’t we just creating some extra-fertile ground for metanarrative to spring from?
Live to serve : Serve to live
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agnostic Paul
In 1 Cor 11 especially vv 12 - 16, Paul does use a very interesting appeal to nature to bolster his argument about the proper ordering of human relationships according to natural function. The interesting point here, to me, is that Paul specifically invites the reader to judge for herself - an invitation that is not taken seriously at all. He has already stated a priinciple of equality in v11 that is the entirety of his teaching and specifically is given the weightage of "in the Lord" as opposed to all the other speculations and practices of the churches.
This is Paul, the original thinker declaring both his own biases and his conclusion that in Christ there is no ground for differentiation. He clearly delineates what the rule is as opposed to what his speculations are. The rule "in Christ" supercedes al temporal cultural edicts and eventually when all creation does acknowledge the Lordship of Christ, the ethic of God’s kingdom will rule. We have that as our ultimate goal in our fellowship and should be working our way ever towards The Kingdom here on earth.
Within the context of thought experiments, there is no doubt that Paul is doing something very much like what you are describing except that he has only one ultimate goal in mind. Along the way Paul explicitly acknowledges his own limitations and invites the reader to exercise judgement based on the ultimate aim of being one with and "in Christ".
In terms of what we think of as Christianity, as orthodoxy, and as sound doctrine, within our 2k+ years of speculation and finetuning, rereading Paul is actually like reading an agnostic or even like reading an atheist. As we strip off our ‘religion filters’ and try to look at Paul as a thought experimanter par excellence we too should feel afresh that power of thought and his own unifying horizon.
Live to serve : Serve to live
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Myth and the Scientific Method
Hello:
I’m quite new to this site, and only superficially aware of the emerging church movement. Lurking, vicarious study, and the trials of careful contemplation one should normally go through before raising his or her voice in a new and strange environment don’t sit well with me, however, so I’m just going to dive right into the discussion and hope for the best. With any luck, nobody will mind too much.
John: I must say, to begin, that I thoroughly enjoyed your post; it was well-written, thoughtful, inquisitive, and it ran entirely contrary to the way I personally think. The mental engagement has been much appreciated.
Though I don’t want to lose the breadth of your post in my main objection to it, I feel as though I should enter into this discussion with the thing that - in my opinion - distinguishes my thought from yours most potently: namely, the way in which you utilize “myth”: relative to truth, and especially relative to science. From what I’ve been able to gather, there exists some sort of an opposition between myth and science in your writing, the one (myth) operating as the inferior, primitive, and essentially incorrect counterpart to the other (science), which exists as a suitable standard of judgement. It is the stock that you appear to put into science - read: the stock that I understand you to be putting into science - that signifies my initial point of departure away from your line of thinking; suffice it to say, I do not see science as the Truth, as a worthwhile truth, nor as a discipline that Christianity, Biblical scholarship and theology should feel compelled to answer to in any way.
I do not believe that I am alone in this stance, though I would imagine that it is a minority point of view: neither conservative nor liberal - contemporary Christianity’s treasured dichotomy - and deeply incompatible with both. Will science and criticism be subverted to the text, or the text be subverted to science and criticism? Nowhere does this dichotomy resonate with me: why should a relationship between Biblical text and positivistic observation be thought of as necessary to begin with?
From any standpoint that accepts the prejudices of science and the scientific method as believable fact, yes: “myth” and “fairy tale” become easy synonyms. It becomes equally easy to equate the formulation of myth with the idea of “thought experiment” (where “thought experiment” appears to represent a sort of primitive scientific method, without proper tools, without proper equations, without… ).
These are, of course, merely the products of the scientific prejudices, the propositions that science assumes to be true, without any definite proof of this being so: assuming the existence of “laws of nature”, assuming that the past is static, assuming an ordered universe, assuming that anomalies are the result of insufficient data or human error (and not, perhaps, fissures within the whole of the scientific method)… science appears to assume a fair bit.
Why is it difficult to believe that woman was formed from the rib of a man, or that snakes lost their legs by means of some gnostic tempter? Difficult to believe, perhaps, because we assume that the world has always operated as it operates now… difficult to believe, perhaps, because we have re-written the past to exclude any sort of space in which this mythology might work. This is the unfortunate poverty of the scientific worldview: this is the reason I have no real love for inerrancy debates, Creation Science, empirical textual criticism or the idea of the stories of the creation as a parable in the service of a creator God. I simply see no reason for Christianity, theology, philosophy, etc., to submit themselves to the haughty authority of the scientific method, author of boring and uninspiring fictions.
The liberty of deconstruction is, for me, the freedom to religion, from positivism and all its bastard children. The gifts of science are not worth its costs, especially as it regards religion.
Begin in Genesis: the world is a formless void. In many ways, it remains a formless void. “Postmodernism” is the opening, the de-formation of the integral reality that modernity has formed for us. Modernity, and its scientific house pets, closed off as much space as they were able in an attempt to, once and for all, define the state of things. Deconstruction is a tool that allows us to re-open the fissures, allow entropy to have its way with our definitions, and create the space required to sustain the existence of God.
Yes: the creation story is a total farce in light of scientific truth. But why allow science the final word? Why allow Carl Sagan to author the universe’s past?
Nature is the imitation of narrative.
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Re: Myth and the Scientific Method
A slippery slope, you say? I’d welcome any sort of an angle right now; even a slippery slope is a fixed point of some kind…
I’m fairly familiar with Lyotard and The Postmodern Condition, and can most certainly appreciate his sentiments. Personally, I prefer Baudrillard’s description of disgust with regards to Integral Reality (“the irreversible movement towards the totalization of the world”) over Lyotard’s incredulity toward metanarratives as a metaphor of incompatibility with science and the scientific method:
“Once all transcendence is conjured away, things are no longer anything but what they are and, such as they are, they are unbearable.”
In other words, the unbearable state of the Kansas Board of Education is, for me, matched by its opposition: not one end of the spectrum, nor the spectral extremes, but the entire business of Creation vs. Evolution, Science vs. Scripture, Pistis vs. Gnosis, Dr. Dino vs. Stephen Hawking has become unbearable to me.
I’m not so much searching to find my place amidst the spectrum of the debate; rather, I’m hoping to create enough room for myself in the fissures, to move beyond, below, and away from the whole of the dichotomy altogether. If this is at all going to be possible, responding to the scientific metanarrative with a religious metanarrative won’t be an option. Metanarrative itself will have to be abolished. This, I think, could be considered my “task”, and what I believe to be the best hope for Christianity in the near to distant future.
As far as I can tell, this will not be accomplished by means of any of the three methods you have outlined above. Each of these methods appears, from where I’m sitting, to substitute one Eidetic meta-super-structure for another. While I’m not entirely sure what to propose instead of any of these three options, I am hoping that I’ll be able to figure something out, as I begin to see definitions form out of various differences.
You are, of course, quite right about sceptical attitudes toward the creation narratives in times historical. I’m not convinced that the Epistle of Barnabas represents any meaningful “scepticism” toward the creation narratives (the numerological substitution seems to be primarily eschatological, rather than recollective), though I’d agree with you that the side-remarks of Origen in his description of his flesh/soul/spirit interpretive framework would suggest a scepticism of sorts regarding the creation narratives as literal history. The flesh/soul/spirit framework, it seems, still serves well (cf. “Genesis as True Myth”).
What the adults of America do and do not do is, for good or for ill, none of my business. They’re out of my jurisdiction, and if they’re truly so evenly polarized, it is probably for the best that I have no stake in their decisions. The ability to read the first few chapters of Genesis “literally” (if this is truly what the fundamentalist is doing in reading the creation narratives as propositional, fact-for-fact historical-phenomena) is a peculiarly “American” one (“America” in the world-wide sense), but not – as you well know – a necessary one.
Nor, for that matter, is the scientific-propositional reading a necessary one. Nor, for that matter, is any propositional reading of the creation narratives necessary.
Metaphysics can be overcome.
As for the idea of deterritorialization, I like the comparison: an anthropo-geographic metaphor, as opposed to a literary one. I would retain the idea of deconstruction though – to some degree, at least – largely because I do not necessarily feel as though Scripture itself is a hurdle that need be overcome: there is no text without interpretation.
I would, however, certainly agree that Christianity has been overdetermined, and that it could benefit from some loosening.
But whether the miracle is a fact contra naturam depends ultimately on our conception of nature. If nature is understood to be the reality of science - in other words, a reality distilled from the other, total, general, daily reality by a narrowly circumscribed, uncommon, acquired, and in every way artificial, point of view - then, indeed, miracles involve things so far removed from their common nature that they can no longer show the presence of God… God has been removed from reality so thoroughly that it is impossible for Him to appear. If within this conception of nature God is still expected to appear, it will have to be assumed that He can still appear as a physical fact among other physical facts, as a child for instance: as the child Jesus, who plays between the oak tree and the maple tree, and who can be approached in the same biological way as the trees can be approached. Believing in the miracle in this way is actually not believing in it.
For in the first place, reality - which is, above all, a realization of our understanding with God - has been reduced to a system of scientific facts; this means that God has been removed from this reality. And in the second place, if He is then, after all, requested to reappear in this reality, which has become foreign to Him, in the shape of an “objective” fact among other “objective” facts, then, this means that God dies.
The conception that the miracle is contra naturam does not only mean that, as a miracle, it disrupts nature; it also implies that the miracle which appears in the resulting cleft shows itself as a (pseudo) natural, (pseudo) physical, and (pseudo) chemical fact. Belief in the miracle… is a belief in (pseudo) science.
J.H. van den Berg
http://www.danielbooy.co.nr/
The suPer-EsSential Divine Gloom
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Re: Myth and the Scientific Method
Science may never find itself as The Totalizing Discourse of our age and our time, but this has not yet kept Science – as you say, a “loosely-assembled composite” discipline; though I use the term “Science” broadly, generally and treat the composite as a single pneumatic entity, I realize that there are probably more exceptions than rules within the scientific community – from becoming a totality. The totality: essentially any hermeneutic that has transcended the narrative and become a metanarrative; any practise or discipline that no longer has anything on which there is nothing to say.
Science demonstrates that it has overcome its boundaries when it becomes capable of moral judgements, when it equates the universe with cause, effect, and empirical tests. There is no question that science cannot provide a convincing answer to in this hemisphere; the West is convinced of science: our conviction.
Naturally, religion is no less guilty of overcoming the whole of reality via metanarrative: nor democracy, nor Marxism, nor contemporary environmentalism, nor capitalism. Science as The Totalizing Discourse is unlikely, but science as a totalizing discourse is a reality. “There are indeed two powers in heaven!”
Regarding the impact of the thought experiments… who knows? The overdetermination of Christianity is no guarantor of stability, and may yet, in fact, prove to be the factor that begins the system-wide ideological entropy that the world seems to need every now and again – confession of a formerly overdetermined Christian.
Regardless of the outcome, however, I’d say that there’s plenty of room – and plenty of need, as well – for fun.
http://www.danielbooy.co.nr/
The suPer-EsSential Divine Gloom
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Re: Myth and the Scientific Method
Danielbooy,
"the entire business of Creation vs. Evolution, Science vs. Scripture,
Pistis vs. Gnosis, Dr. Dino vs. Stephen Hawking has become unbearable
to me"
would be a statement that I think a number of us could very strongly identify with. So, what are the alternatives? Any construct or way of viewing the world is necessarily simulacrum. Perception itself is subtractive and selective in nature. The uncertainties of daily living pile up even when we fail to notice that we are walking a bit too close to the cliff edge.
But, it is precisely here that myth comes to the fore. While not providing a metanarrative, it does provide the anchor points that orient our souls to the deeper, other and differant qualities of realities that exist in dimensions that we cannot precisely delineate.
It is a mistake to try to substitiute myth for truth or vice versa. Both are needed and if you ask me I think we need good myth more than we need whatever we have so far though of as "truth".
Live to serve : Serve to live
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Re: Myth and the Scientific Method
SamLCarr:
Yes, in effect, a construct or worldview is “necessary”; to be without one is to, in my estimation, surrender oneself to a sort of nihilistic abyss of reality, where all is as it is: “a formless void.” At the same time, I think that the attempt to still and quiet the fluctuating chaos of reality-without-definition has tested the limits of humanity’s ability, and found it wanting. The meta-superstructures of definition are impressive things: belief systems that effectively define a linear transition of human progress, that give hope for tomorrow and promise for today, that delegate and relegate convincingly, that define away all the uncomfortable uncertainties.
Buying into these ideologies allows a person a complete worldview; it also keeps him or her away from “the flux” outside at every point and turn. Should the ideology fail, should its thin places and weak spots ever be prodded and exploited, the persons responsible become susceptible to the bare abyss and nihilism outside the ideology.
What is the alternative? I only have ideas, at this point, though they usually begin from the position of wanting to cope with the flux of life, rather than wanting to tame it entirely or negate it altogether; at the end of the day, a few doses of uncertainty may not be the worst thing in the world.
It is for this reason that I like myth. I agree with you: myth is important, especially as I find myself in a land without any sort of mythology to speak of. Our truths are important too, but I’m only really able to give truth a chance when it doesn’t take itself too seriously: when it understands that it has not taken from the tree of life and that it will not live forever.
The suPer-EsSential Divine Gloom
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Re: Myth and the Scientific Method
danielbooy:
Check out my new book on “The Scientific Worldview” at www.thescientificworldview.com. Chapter 3 contains most of my first book on the subject: “The Ten Assumptions of Science.”
Glenn Borchardt
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Re: agnostic Paul
Certainly Paul is expressing a very strongly held personal opinion. He often does. But Paul is also engaging in argumentation, as he also does throughout Romans. When Paul feels that there is a teaching of the Lord that clearly applies, Paul doesn’t waste time arguing, he merely points out the teaching and moves on. When his opinion is sought on a matter not covered by any clear principle, then Paul states his ‘opinion’ and argues and invites argument in turn even though his own strongly held views are clearly on display. Paul certainly has the "I’m a bit further along on this road than you" tone but he still leaves these matter ultimately to the reader’s choice and even by stating the dominant principle.
Paul’s own opinion in this passage favors a more traditional and less anticultural route, but then, and this is what is most interesting, Paul himself is not elevating his opinion here to ‘edict’ status, which he almost seems to do in 1Cor 7.
Live to serve : Serve to live
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Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments
You all realize, don’t you, that you’re reinventing the wheel here? The question of the genre of Gen. 1-3 (actually Gen. 1-11) has been hotly debated in faith-and-science circles for decades. See, e.g., Answers in Genesis (young earth creationism), Reasons to Believe (old earth creationism) and the American Scientific Affiliation and Christians in Science (mostly theistic evolution), all of which have extensive websites with many articles and book recommendations.
The epistemological questions relating to this also have been thoroughly vetted: see, e.g., Alister McGrath’s “Scientific Theology” series.
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Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments
John, no condescenion intended, and thanks for the warm, hospitable welcome.
I don’t have any “answers.” What I do have is two solid years of wrestling with these issues, in a community of people who have been wrestling with them far longer.
No one as far as I can tell has referenced John Polkinhorne, Alister McGrath, Nancey Murphy, Conrad Hyers, Bernard Ramm, or any other heavyweights in faith-science questions, or the ASA’s journal “Perspectives on Science and Christian Faith,” or CIS’ journal “Science and Christian Belief.” On heremenuetics, there is an interesting discussion now taking place in evangelical circles about the nature and limits of “accommodation” — see Peter Enns’ “Inspiration and Accommodation.”
Anyway, none of this is intended to claim answers, but hopefully to point to some fruitful resources. Does “open source” mean “without reference to anything anyone else has ever said?”
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Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments
dbecke:
If Kierkegaard is to be believed, I can’t reinvent the wheel any more successfully than I could take the same trip to Berlin twice. Yes, the question of science and faith has been debated for decades; it’s been debated, in fact, since folks started coming out with the idea that the earth was older than the Bible seemed to indicate, a century and a half ago.
I’m here and on this topic, personally, because everything I’ve read on the subject of faith, science, and Genesis has seemed unsatisfactory. All responses appear to play the same sort of game, along the same sort of line, with different factions placing themselves at different points on that one dimension. This includes young earth creationists, old earth creationists, and the folks down in theistic evolution.
Even those who will find themselves somewhere within that dichotomy will usually also find that the answers given previously by another thinker do not fully satisfy, do not cover all the important bases. This is especially true amongst the more gnostic evangelicals. As such, everybody has their giants, everybody has their own vote for who the heavyweights are.
Admittedly, I’d only ever heard of two of the people you’d mentioned (McGrath and Enns), and only read one of them: Enns’ “Inspiration and Incarnation”, which I found to be a rather dreadful read, conservative and largely unimaginative, though albeit well-intentioned.
As for “open source” and how it regards referencing “anything anyone else has ever said”:
“The idea that an idea can be stolen from you is meaningless. If it can be stolen from you, that is because it is unimportant. If it can be stolen from you, the fact is that it is not yours.”
—Jean Baudrillard
The suPer-EsSential Divine Gloom (cc)
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Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments
dbecke,
The whole thing of science and faith is a very interesting discussion in itself and though a lot of heavy hitters have weighed in, I’d agree with Danielbooy that so far none of the proposed syntheses are convincing. Problems exist on many fronts beginning with our epistemologies, and including our hermeneutics as well as our understanding of science as the arbiter of the physical universe. Nonetheless, though it is a diffiult area, it is one that is worth struggling with.
Since you find it so interesting, and are ‘up’ on the latest contributions, I would suggest that you put up a post on this fascinating subject. You might also find some other posts here at OST that have discussed the science - faith questions to be of interest, and your wisdom on Genesis 1 (another great John Doyle post) would also be appreciated.
In the meantime I will attempt to resist the temptation to strike out on a tangent to John Doyle’s present (and fascinating) explorations on the slippery slides into the noman’s lands of agostic-atheistic-fundamentalist biblical discourse.
Live to serve : Serve to live
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Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments
Interesting. I really loved Enns’ book. But you are right, I think, that there is no satisfying “synthesis.” I wonder, though, if it is unrealistic to expect such a synthesis?
I’d suggest that framing this discussion in terms of “acting as though the text were not inerrant” is a mistake. Immediately, that drives us into competing categories of “truth” and “error,” and we’re forced to put the text into one of those boxes.
Maybe a better question is, “what literary genre is this text?” If the text is not intended to be a simple factual narrative genre, then it is not in “error” if it omits some details or recasts some events using symbolic language or figures.
Within the text itself, there are some good reasons to ask questions about genre. For example, the sun appears well after the first “day”; the days seem to have a parallel structure (see Henri Blocher’s commentary on this “framework” approach); then there is the garden with teh magical trees and talking snake. The text also bears similarities to, but also important differences with, earlier Mesopotamian creation myths, suggesting that it has a polemical purpose rather than merely being reportage. And other parts of the text that we don’t often focus on assume a typical ancient near eastern cosmology in which the earth is the center of the universe and the sky is a solid tent supported by pillars (See John Walton, Ancient Near Eastern Thought and the Old Testament).
OTOH, starting with Gen. 2, notwithstanding the mystical elements, the text seems to take on something of a more concrete form, suggesting that it is not entirely fictional or allegorical. It seems to me, then, to be a mixed genre that might not even be entirely familiar to us today.
A very interesting study on the genre of these narratives is an older book, Conrad Hyers, The Meaning of Creation. I’m not sure I agree with Hyers because he views these narratives as essentially non-historical. However, Hyers illustrates very well how the text is primarily a polemic against the Babylonian creation myths.
One of the reasons, then, that there is no satisfying “synthesis” of these texts and modern science is that the texts serve entirely different purposes than those that interest modern science. They are not simple “scientific” or even simple “historical” documents. I maintain that they are historical narratives of a sort, but the genre is a very unique and one that selectively reports certain information for polemical purposes within an ancient near eastern cosmological and mythic framework. This isn’t “error” — it’s exactly what the text is meant to do.
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Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments
John said: But if, say, a particular passage in a Pauline letter seems to make sense only if we infer that he read Genesis 1-3 not as “true myth” but as a historically accurate account, then the hermeneutical task gets more complicated.
Right. Which is one reason why I don’t think “true myth” or “broken myth” or “allegory” are appropriate categories for Gen. 1-3. But the alternative is not necessarily “simple history” which is either “true” or “in error” in some binary fashion.
Take the example of Adam, to whom Paul refers several times to make important theological points. Could Adam be both a historical person and a literary / typological representative of humanity? If so, perhaps we don’t need to worry too much about where Adam fits in human evolutionary history (assuming the scientific account of evolutionary history is correct). Perhaps Gen. 1-3 doesn’t give us a blow-by-blow account of human and cosmic origins — perhaps it’s a very selective set of historical guideposts within the framework of a symbolic-mythic setting.
John said: One could, of course, extend the same courtesy to other non-canonical ancient myths, extracting their symbolic meaning and regarding them as God-inspired texts.
I’d disagree with you here, because one thing the Biblical creation narratives do seem to be clearly is a polemic against the Babylonian creation myths. They shout “the LORD alone made the world and made you; creation and humanity is not the byproduct of a war between the Marduk and Tiamat.” (Here is a link to the Enuma Elish, BTW: http://www.cresourcei.org/enumaelish.html_
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Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments
Enns’ book and I have some difficulties together. Perhaps it was the circumstances surrounding my reading it: an evangelical friend of mine sent it to me as a way to “bridge discussion” between he and I; Enns, however, didn’t represent “my side” in any meaningful way. It was as though he set up a ‘liberal’ straw-man – many evangelicals, it seems, still think in terms of twos when it comes to the types of Christian one can be – and began to dialogue with it. I could see that Enns was communicating, but I wasn’t sure with whom.
In any event, I agree with you; it is entirely unrealistic to expect a synthesis between science and the text. This is why most of the projects heretofore have seemed, to me, to be dissatisfying: the attempt to reconcile two great Truth-sets with one another (as all truth is God’s Truth). At the same time, I’m not sure that I would want to travel the route you propose, perhaps for a similar reason; the text is myth, the text is history, the text is allegory: and then the text is static, lifeless, and beyond utilization. The danger of literary criticism is the degree to which it is still taken seriously; many of us still believe that these literary categories exist outside of literature itself, that these categories represent what a text actually is, that many still fail to recognize that literary criticism is something we have imposed upon the text, and not something that the text can reveal to us.
All the while, categorization by means of genre is still playing the game of truth/error; within the genres themselves exist means by which literature can be judged. Within Christian thought (cf. back to Enns’ book), this easily leads to how the texts ought to be read, what lessons the texts have for us – given their genre – and by consequence, how God and the ancients are instructing us still to this day.
Then the gospels and Paul become effective voices against empire. Then the Song of Solomon becomes a Biblical guide to holy lovemaking. Then the minor prophets have something to say about Sudan, and people become capable of asking “What would Jesus drive?” while maintaining a straight face. Then: people are led to believe that the Biblical authors were speaking to us, to all of time, and might be able to give us advice regarding fast food, or what sort of music we should listen to. Why must the text be something at all? What if the text were nothing, and all of these formulations were little more than reflections of ourselves within believable constraints?
Having said all that, a bit of stability can be a very good thing, and literary criticism certainly provides this. What it doesn’t seem to provide, at least in my experience, is a way out, and the pneumatic forces behind and underneath text and interpretation need a way out. Genesis as myth, Genesis as foundation-of-kingdom, Genesis as undermining-of-empire, Genesis as bedtime story, Genesis as morality lesson: and so on. I only desire the ability to keep the avenues open, should the spirit of interpretation feel the need to explore.
The suPer-EsSential Divine Gloom (cc)
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Re: death and immortality
I’d agree that this is the Pauline argument. I think there is also a strong affinity here with the Johanine idea of abundant life. That is, life here and now, rather then in some future reformatted life. It’s here that the Johanine idea of indwelling Christ and the Pauline conception of ‘being in’ Christ arwe existential, here and now, and challenge us to look at what discipleship means for the present.
Life is to be fully lived and life is filled to fullness and to overflowing, if it is lived in the NOW of Jesus.
Live to serve : Serve to live
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Re: death and immortality
I agree. It is as N.T. Wright says, the age to come has broken into the present, while remaining also future. Our present life should be a foreshadow of our future life. We have life in Christ now, but await the redemption of our bodies.
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Re: the creation's corruption in Romans 8
It’s so interesting that while the cursing in Genesis seems to link Adam’s sin to Adam’s subsequently having to strive with nature in order to eke out a survival, here in Romans 8 Paul meditates on nature’s struggle being like that of the woman in childbirth. Perhaps he found the imagery of delivery to be much closer to how he sees nature’s travails. The ‘revealing of the sons’ will be a tremendous delivery indeed and the accompanying joy too of similarly ‘orders of magnitude’ greater.
I also like the idea of a bad misfit with nature resulting from a sort of a death of understanding, a sudden lack of cooperation. Mankind finds it easier to coopt nature rather than to cooperate with it.
Is it possible that the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was just this, a sort of Pandora’s box of cooptation?
The inability to obey God’s law is in some sense not just a result of inheritance but there is also a sense in Romans that each human individual has personally participated in Adam’s rebellion.
Live to serve : Serve to live
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Re: without excuse in Romans 1
Well, if Paul had meant to generalise just so then we too would be justified in believing that God is just the entropic force embodied and pomotified by our overly hypothetical minds. But, I contend in a thread elsewhere that this juicy passage may not be Paul’s at all, or not in that sense anyway. In which case, the cosmology of Roman’s 5-8 would be much closer to Paul’s thinking.
Mankind’s organic connection with the nature that birthed her has been disturbed rather nastilly by the fall. At the same time, the easy cameraderie and the active cooperation between God and man has also been replaced by a befuddlement in which though it should be plain to us that God has created and actively sustains his creation yet we have only enough intelligence left to discern our own genius.
What Paul does not speculate much on until Romans 7, and there only briefly, is that our myopic selfconsciousness now means that we have a hard time integrating even our own little selves so that it is a losing struggle to get ourselves to even sustain the thought that we need to get back to being at one with God again.
Live to serve : Serve to live
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Re: sabbath rest in Hebrews 4
Just as a random thought, what view do you think the emerging church should take on the Sabbath? Would a narrative-driven theology incline us to rest on the seventh day?
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Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments
The Scriptural cosmogonies might be regarded as thought experiments,
speculations about how the present reality might have emerged out of
some hypothetical past reality…what is most likely the case; namely, that Genesis 1-3
are myths in the usual sense of the term: works of individual or
collective imagination, speculative attempts to explain mysteries in
the absence of adequate information.
If one is to regard the oldest myths as being the survivors of thought competitions and cultural evolutions over startlingly long periods of time, one has to then ask why these particular myths have proved so resilient and so worthwhile to human beings even though the extgernal trappings of the human lives thatbirthed them are no longer discernible.
In the "Genesis 1 as true Myth" post I recall that a number of the contributors were startled that we could now make out little as far as the original ‘framing’ context of the stories. It is not only that there are few textual hints, but also that the story seems to reach us on a deeper and more essential level where the elements are felt to be common and easy to identify oneself with rather than being the products of a hoary past with which we now can have no conceivable connection. Good stories always seem to be able to rise above and beyond their immediate contexts and to be able to communicate ‘truth’ across generations.
A part of this could be due to the human ability to ‘suspend disbelief’ but is that all that it is?
Live to serve : Serve to live
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Re: The Creation Narratives as Thought Experiments
This is a very interesting discussion that is fitting with the title, “the creation as thought experiments.” I believe it is always good to express your comments in a way that there will be healthy push backs on your ideas. I never think it is good for a person to become to one minded and only have one point of view.
In this particular topic, I sense that they issue is of one: is the Bible in error in the creation account. Should we take it literal or not? And not to say that these argument aren’t relevant and important because it is but I’m not hundred percent sure how the questions arised will totally affect my relationship with Jesus Christ. My only fear is that once I start not trusting or believing in what the Bible has to say, then I’m afraid that when I pray to Him, He isn’t going to be entirely listening.
I believe that the Spirit of God is the one whom we should be directing our thoughts and concerns to. In this particular exercise of the creation in the Bible, we should be aware that God speaks to us in many different ways.
Vanhoozer points out that, since Scripture utilizes a variety of “genre” in communicating its message (i.e., narratives, propositions, poetry, prophecy, etc.), it has a “multi-faceted” authority that only demonstrates the complexity of the Spirit’s authority in speaking forth His “truth” (Vanhoozer, “The Semantics of Biblical Literature,” 92). Vanhoozer I believe looks towards the Timothy passage that all Scripture is inspired by God and that God is Truth therefore all of Scripture is Truth.
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