The World's Wisdom and God's Folly: A Gospel of Deconstruction
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In 1 Corinthians 1:18-2:5, Paul makes the case against his critics in Corinth (as well as his “fans,” who have too closely attached themselves to his ministry, 1:12-16) for preaching an ‘elementary’ gospel, stripped of any of the intellectual trappings of philosophical sophistication, rhetorical deftness, and polished speech (1Cor.2:1-4; cf. 2Cor.10:10; 11:16) - all designed to impress…all designed to persuade by appealing to, and thereby affirming, the world’s pretence of knowledge and power. Paul states that such preaching would in fact make the message of the cross “void,” emptied of its power. Why? He gives two reasons, essentially. First, God has exposed the wisdom and power of the world as folly and, therefore, as weakness. God’s wisdom and power, unveiled in the cross, has undermined the world’s. To appeal to it, therefore, would be backward and, ultimately, at odds with the divine power of the cross Sir Francis Bacon famously wrote that knowledge is power. But Frederich Nietzsche profoundly altered the innocent connection between the two by asserting that all “knowledge” is in fact the construct of power. Truth claims, he argued, are power-plays, promoting those who advance these claims, while marginalizing those who oppose them, or otherwise fall outside the scope of their interest. Thus “knowledge is power” takes on a new, darker nuance. Michel Foucault, following Nietzsche’s genealogy of morals, etc., not only sought to betray the social construction of Western ‘normativity’ in various arenas, but ‘deconstructed’ them as arbitrary, and ultimately, as strategies of power, self-serving (‘self’ here refers, by and large, to the bourgeois middle class). Of course, his own agenda, as the “archaeologist of knowledge,” was equally self-serving - what else could it be? God is the ultimate deconstructor of human wisdom, knowledge and power. And his agenda, unlike ours, is both self-serving and just. It is just, as John Piper has well argued in numerous places, precisely because it is God-serving - serving the purposes and ends of omnibenevolence in righteousness and truth. But this ‘truism’ hits home when we understand, through the message of the cross, that at the center of God’s self-serving agenda against and for the world stands the divine self-giving of Christ crucified. What do we mean by saying that God has deconstructed the world in its wisdom and power? We mean He has exposed it’s failure, in judgment, and condemned it, all at once, in the ‘apocalyptic’ revelation of the mystery of God (cf. 1Cor.2:1,7). Namely, God was well-pleased to show up its pretension through the foolishness and weakness of the gospel-proclamation. “For since in God’s wisdom the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, it pleased God through the folly of what was preached to save those who believe.” It is God’s wisdom that the world, in its wisdom, should fail to come to a true knowledge of God. Why? Simply this: so that no man might boast (1Cor.1:29, 31) Not only is the incomprehensible and invisible God known only through His sovereign self-revelation, but, even given this, sinful man cannot come to know God through the lens of his loaded, epistemic constructs - driven, as they are, by his own “will to power.” God will not be found by the self-seeking. More than that, fallen man’s wisdom is grounded in a godless hubris; in his pretentious wisdom and power, he exalts himself! If a sinner found God through his own wisdom, we might never hear the end of it. Hence, God is not only inscrutable to the proud, by the nature of His holiness, but, morally, volitionally, as ruler and judge, He refuses them this boast. That’s why. But how does the cross do this? Specifically, God exposes the world’s failure in publicly presenting a crucified Messiah to the world, only to to be rejected. The Jew rejects it as the “anti-miracle,” to borrow from Eugene Peterson’s paraphrase, and the Greek rejects it as utter non-sense. So the world, as represented by the ‘wise’ and ‘powerful’, has rejected the very wisdom and power of God, and thereby shown itself entirely foolish and (morally) incompetent. God’s folly deconstructs the world’s wisdom. (In other words, God clearly presented the truth in a way which did NOT appeal to the world’s values - for its values were morally corrupt and self-absorbed - and thus, through the condemnation of the Truth, damned the world’s system of evaluation.) Surely the wisdom of the Jewish scribes was exposed in their rejection of the long-awaited Messiah, to whom all the Scriptures had pointed. So much for their biblical expertise and wisdom! Surely the power the Sadducees, Herodians and Romans wielded in arresting, condemning and executing the Lord of glory was unveiled as not only child’s play, but as britches far too big for their slender frame, by the resurrection of the sovereign Christ. So much for the imposing power of the rulers of this age! Even as we speak, their authority evaporates (1Cor.2:6). And this continues, of course, in Paul’s ministry, as both Jew and Gentile reject Paul’s gospel as foolish, as weakness - as the detestable stench of death (2Cor.2:14-16; 1 Cor.1:18). It continues to this day, whenever the world rejects Jesus, while standing on the ground of its own wisdom and power. God has already pulled the rug out - and in rejecting the gospel, they come crashing down upon the same, hard ground. As it was written, they have stumbled over the stumbling block, the stone of offense, which God has placed in Israel. How the mighty have fallen! “Where is the sage? Where is the scribe? Where’s the critic of this age?” God has made them obsolete through the cross. He has nullified them once and for all; and that in which they gloried is now shown to be their shame. God has shot through the world’s show of wisdom and power with its own gun - or in this case, its own gibbet, and put it on display for all to see: Here hangs the wisdom and power of this age! To apply this to our ‘postmodern’ context, we might add: “where is the tolerant inclusivist of our age?” Has not God shown up our pretence of tolerance and inclusion? For the world, in all of its talk of inclusivity, still excludes Jesus (on His own terms)! The world excludes its maker, its sustainer and redeemer! In its violent intolerance of God’s Word, the very light of the world - marginalizing God’s truth in Christ, and seeking (in vain) to extinguish His brilliance (Jn.1:5) - God has uncovered the hypocrisy, bankruptcy and tragic failure of its inclusive rhetoric. And, as men, women, and children from every tribe, language, people-group and religion come to Christ, God’s exclusivity is daily proved more inclusive than all the world’s inclusivity! As Christians we shouldn’t be postmodern, but post-‘flesh’, post-history, post-everything this side of heaven. We ought rather to be sages, scribes and scholars of the age to come. To then preach in such a way as to appeal to the world’s pretence of knowledge and power is not only unproductive, but counterproductive, as a strategy deconstructed by the gospel itself. More than that, it is to frame the cross, which signifies the world’s judgment, as though it were its reward. The medium violently contradicts the message - it obfuscates “the placarding” of Christ crucified (cf. Gal.3:1) in our proclamation. The world, with its rhetoric, manipulates with selfish and/or political intent. The preacher of the gospel, however, rather than impress and manipulate according to his own agenda, ought to align himself with God’s agenda (requiring repentance), with the self-emptying gospel he proclaims (requiring love) - speaking plainly, sincerely, even pouring out his life for his hearers, and so, like the apostle, embodying the self-giving of Christ crucified (cf. 1Cor.4:9-13; 2Cor.4:7-16). The second reason is that, if we do persuade through appealing to the world’s values, rather than to the cross alone, than the confidence in the power of Christ crucified is eroded. We feel our conversion might rest on man’s wisdom, rather than God’s (1Cor.2:5). At first, this appears perhaps attractive to us. Human arrogance is so pernicious and pervasive, that even the newly born Christian is tempted to boast that their new-found faith - their newly acquired spiritual understanding and power - is somehow to their credit. As though we who believe do so because we had a superior knowledge or strength! But Paul makes plain that it is the power of the cross, at work as God Himself calls us into fellowship with His Son (1Cor.1:9; 1:30-31), which is the source of our new life. Paul here reminds the very status-conscious Corinthians of their unimpressive past - their not-so-glorious former ‘group identities’ (1Cor.1:26-29) - in underlining God’s sovereignty and goodness in calling them, as part of the divine undermining of the world’s values (transvaluation). Their salvation rests neither on the brilliance of the preacher, nor upon their own brilliance in discerning it (if anything, quite despite it), but upon the cross of a crucified Messiah - the foolishness and weakness of God! And this basis is infinitely more superior than grounding our confidence in our own wisdom or power. As Paul states, God’s foolishness is greater than any man’s wisdom, and His weakness is stronger than any man’s power. It is this dumb and servile Christ who establishes our confidence of faith, and our new status in Him (1Cor.1:30b); it is in this Jesus that we boast! And all the world shall never hear the end of it! |
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Re: The World's Wisdom and God's Folly: A Gospel of ...
To apply this to our ‘postmodern’ context, we might add: “where is the tolerant inclusivist of our age?” Has not God shown up our pretence of tolerance and inclusion? For the world, in all of its talk of inclusivity, still excludes Jesus (on His own terms)! The world excludes its maker, its sustainer and redeemer!
This doesn’t seem to me entirely fair. Postmodernism has a philosophical respect for the fact that individuals and groups and cultures see the world and construct their truth from different perspectives, which naturally leads to epistemological suspicion regarding claims to absolute truth and so-called metanarratives. Equally, postmodernity as a social corrolary to postmodernism appreciates the fact that different individuals, groups and cultures are having to learn to live together and respect one another’s worldview and is practically suspicious of groups that set out to impose or demand adherence to their particular set of beliefs. It seems to me entirely consistent with the basic premise of postmodernism that it should resist, marginalize, and if necessary exclude a movement such as conservative Christianity that claims a monopoly on ultimate truth. It seems to me quite right that postmodernity should tolerate tolerant groups and hold at arms length intolerant groups.
As Christians we shouldn’t be postmodern, but post-‘flesh’, post-history, post-everything this side of heaven. We ought rather to be sages, scribes and scholars of the age to come.
I like the idea that we should be ‘sages, scribes and scholars of the age to come’, but I certainly wouldn’t equate the age to come with heaven or everything that is post-history. On the one hand, from the perspective of the New Testament, in my view, the ‘age to come’ was the age beyond the impending but drawn out eschatological crisis of judgment, restoration and vindication. On the other, the template for the existence of the church in this coming age was not ‘heaven’ but a renewed creation, which I would have thought must inevitably take a much more enculturated, contextualized historical form.
There is no escape from culture. What concerns me about your argument is that it assumes an idealized opposition between gospel as a definition of what it means to be church and culture as something that is ultimately worthless.
There is much that could be said about this, but I think I would argue that Paul’s insistence on the cross of Christ in opposition both to the Greek demand for reason and the Jewish demand for signs of God’s power is precisely for the sake of the continuing existence of a new creation community in the world and for the world. His overriding concern is that this community should be able to stand on the ‘day of our Lord Jesus Christ’ (1 Cor. 1:8). That is not, in my view, a final judgment: it is the day on which the Lord Jesus will act in history to deliver his people from their enemies – much as the day of fire that Paul speaks of in 3:12-15 refers not to a final judgment but to a time in the historical future when the integrity of the church will be tested to the limit. His argument, therefore, is that neither wisdom nor the sort of demonstrations of divine power that the Jews hoped for would sustain the community during this time of crisis. Only the cross of Christ – and a willingness to trust the cross of Christ – would guarantee the future of God’s people.
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Re: The World's Wisdom and God's Folly: A Gospel of ...
“Yes, this is the claim made. Here, however, postmodernity shares (perhaps ironically) with the Enlightenment a radical suspicion or skepticism against the epistemic category of divine revelation. Once revelation is effectually rejected, after Kant, there can only be a multitude of ‘perspectives’ (socially and individually constructed).”
Can an avowed postmodern not endorse revelation? I quote James K. A. Smith from his book, Who’s Afraid of Postmodernism?:
“On this ancient-medieval-properly-postmodern model, we rightly give up pretensions to absolute knowledge or certainty, but we do not thereby give up on knowledge altogether. Rather, we can properly confess that we know God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, but such knowledge rests on the gift of (particular, special) revelation, is not universally objective or demonstrable, and remains a matter of interpretation and perspective (with a significant appreciation for the role of the Spirit’s regeneration and illumination as a condition for knowledge.”
I would say that postmodernity is not necessarily opposed to revelation. Indeed, I would say that there is an affinity for revelation because of the postmodern skepticism regarding scientific claims of objectivity.
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Re: The World's Wisdom and God's Folly: A Gospel of ...
Here, however, postmodernity shares (perhaps ironically) with the Enlightenment a radical suspicion or skepticism against the epistemic category of divine revelation.
I don’t really see how it could do otherwise. By your argument modernism and postmodernism should accept or tolerate every claim to revealed truth, from the divine despotism of the pharoahs to the idiotic banalities of the new age movement. How can a progressive culture avoid putting its epistemic confidence either in empiricism/rationalism or in a radical scepticism? Revelation is almost by definition that which for good reason an intelligent society rejects. Really, the problem is ours: What ground do we have for preferring our particular revealed truth over Islam’s or anyone else’s?
What biblical revelation does is set a people apart from the nations. That people bears witness, in whatever ways may be deemed culturally and historically appropriate, to the sovereignty of God. But I don’t really see the point these days of berating the world for rejecting revelation and not believing what we believe.
Paul’s argument in Romans 1 is not quite germane, I think. It is an argument not against modern rationalism or postmodern scepticism but against paganism: not the refusal to accept revelation but the choice of worthless gods over the transcendent creator.
I of course disagree with what I term a ‘de-eschatologized’ eschatology of the NT…
Humph! There is nothing ‘de-eschatologized’ about it. But as you say, that’s another discussion. You go first.
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Re: The World's Wisdom and God's Folly: A Gospel of ...
“the whole epistemic category of revelation is itself dismissed with predjudice.”
I’m prepared to regard what you write as your self-revelation, mostly because I’m confident that I could eventually match up a real person with the words. I have plenty of experience interacting with flesh-and-blood sentient beings who speak words that I can hear with my ears and who write and type words that I can see with my eyes. I may not know everything about you through your self-revelations, but I wouldn’t harbor serious doubts about whether or not you were a real person. We’re material sentient beings who interact with other material sentient beings through our materiality. If God never makes himself visible and never speaks audibly, then he is unique and unprecedented among sentient beings of our experience. I’d think it would require some pretty sophisticated thinking for humans to believe in inaudible and invisible self-revelations of a sentient but non-material being.
“the faith which the revelation of God in Christ evinces makes most sense of the rational, emprical, sceptical, and indeed, whole human experience.”
I don’t find that to be the case, but I guess if you do then I’m cool with that. My persistent question is this: why should believing the Christian theory form the basis for separating the sheep from the goats? Down through history people have embraced any number of theories about why stuff tends to fall to the ground when you drop it, but the stuff just keeps falling regardless of what people believe. Similarly, I would expect that God’s actions in the universe, and even his actions in an individual person’s life, wouldn’t be contingent on your or my (mis)understanding of those actions. A Calvinist position would hold that people come to believe because they are already chosen, their minds having already begun a supernatural regeneration process that causes them to believe through no cleverness of their own. That too is an interesting theory.
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Re: The World's Wisdom and God's Folly: A Gospel of ...
Presumably James was hoping to hear further response from Andrew. Maybe it’s more satisfying to talk with fellow believers about atheists than to engage in cordial discussion directly with an atheist. Or maybe I’ve adequately answered the question on the table. If so, I’m happy to have been of service. Maybe I should start a regular feature here at OST called “Ask the Atheist.”
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Re: The World's Wisdom and God's Folly: A Gospel of ...
I’m atheist but not dogmatically so — I harbor doubts, I might turn out to be wrong, etc.
I’m not sure why what I’m talking about isn’t revelation proper, or why theological revelation should merit a whole separate category from ordinary human self-revelation. “Call me Ishmael,” says the narrator of a book I once read. Whose revelation is this: the narrator’s, or the guy who wrote the narrator’s part?
You say that God revealed himself climactically and materially in Jesus Christ. But that’s not self-evident, is it? Even in the Gospel texts Jesus remains rather ambiguous about it, and of course after two thousand years it’s hard to be certain whether Jesus’s recorded words and deeds are more like Ishmael’s. If I say that I’m John Doyle you might believe me, but what if I said that I’m God incarnate?
Yes, I understand the called, chosen, predestined idea, James, and I’ve read the texts you cite. So now I’ve heard and I don’t believe — or rather, I believe something other than what Paul preaches — for what I regard as plausible if not airtight reasons. You acknowledge that believing as presented by Calvin is itself a gift, unmerited, unthought through human reason, the evidence unperceived through human empirical methods. I don’t believe that either — or rather, I believe that reason and empiricism are useful if fallible tools for finding things out.
I can talk with you via internet, I could conceivably meet you face to face: these are the ordinary means at any human’s disposal to get to know someone else. Why should overriding these ordinary human means of knowing people be regarded not only as good but as essential to salvation? And if this sort of non-rational, non-empirical knowledge is essential but not readily available to humans outside of grace, why not bestow that grace on everyone? And why should employing ordinary human, rational, empirical criteria for evaluating the case for God be regarded as unrighteousness and the pursuit of lies? Is it unrighteous lying for you and I to think that we’re getting to know more about one another through exchanges like this one?
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Re: The World's Wisdom and God's Folly: A Gospel of ...
Returning to your comment from 30 October, you said this:
“the whole epistemic category of revelation is itself dismissed with predjudice. It is laughed out of court. The real problem isn’t that every claim to divinely mediated knowledge would be embraced, but that ALL such claims are rejected out of hand.”
My response was that my ability to identify the revealer is what validates the content of the revelation. If I can identify you as a real person, then I’ll most likely accept as true what you reveal about yourself. If I became persuaded that the source of a particular revelation was God, then I would most likely accept as true what he revealed about himself. I probably don’t differ from most atheists in this respect. So there’s no rejection out of hand of revelation; the rejection is due to disagreement about the source. I think you exist, so I’ll accept your self-revelation as true. I don’t think God exists, so I don’t accept what purports to be God’s self-revelation as true.
You go on in that comment to say:
“the faith which the revelation of God in Christ evinces makes most sense of the rational, emprical, sceptical, and indeed, whole human experience.”
I say that I’m skeptical that God revealed himself in Scripture and in Jesus, my skepticism based in what I consider to be ordinary human criteria for evaluating whether something is real or true. In response to my position you say that I’m deceived, that I suppress the truth in unrighteousness, that I do evil and therefore hate the light, and that I reject what is plain to see. If I were to question your opinion here, you would justify it based on Scriptural revelation. And then I say that I don’t regard Scripture as a revelation of anything beyond the opinions of the humans who wrote it. Which brings us back to an impasse. From your interpretation the impasse is resolved if God chooses me and overrides my self-deception through supernatural means. Does that about cover it, James?
Of course none of this is persuasive if I don’t accept that Paul and company are revealing God’s views on these matters. Even if God exists, which I don’t think is likely, I have no compelling reason to accept that Paul’s ideas about God are any more accurate than anyone else’s.
So in sum: first I’d need to be persuaded that some sort of supernatural powerful beings exist in the universe. Then I’d need those beings to tell me who are the reliable revealers of information about themselves. Then I’d be in a better position to decide whether these beings are reliable, just, truthful, and so on, and whether I’d want to join forces with them. Frankly, I’d be even more skeptical about these beings’ intentions if the only way I could detect their presence and hear their messages was if they overrode my ordinary human reasoning and observational powers.
Anyhow, your original questions seemed addressed to what non-believers think about these matters. I hope I’ve clarified at least my point of view a bit.
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Re: The World's Wisdom and God's Folly: A Gospel of ...
I come to know people through their self-disclosure, through the ways they interact with me and with others, through the things they do. You’re saying that you know God only through self-disclosure, but probably you’d assert that you know God also through interactions and through what he does — not unlike how we get to know people. The big difference, in my view, is that people’s self-disclosure is tangible, acccomplished through words and gestures. Interacting with people is likewise tangible: we talk, touch, go places together. The things people do are tangible too: we can observe the person actually doing them. Conversely, people do not communicate with us telepathically; they do not make things happen without exerting some sort of discernible causal force in the world.
As I said before, every other person whom we can get to know is tangible in this way: this is the human condition. A being who communicates without audible or visible words, who does things without ever being observed doing them: this is an unprecedented sort of being. If I told you I had a human friend who could make himself known only in this non-tangible way, I presume you’d be skeptical, thinking perhaps I’m hallucinating or making things up. “Oh,” I’d reply, “but that’s just the way he is, that’s just how he reveals himself.” I doubt you’d find my assertion persuasive. Many people claim to have had private and non-tangible encounters with space aliens that no one else sees or hears: do we believe them because they tell us that that’s just how the aliens choose to reveal themselves?
I don’t think we need to rely on Enlightenment philosophy to make these sorts of evaluations. If a friend told you that he has ongoing conversations in his head with space aliens, and that these space aliens tell him about themselves and give him instructions, by what criteria would you evaluate this claim? Reason and observation are the ordinary tools at our disposal. Small children act as if they believe that their toys have independent thoughts and can communicate with them. At a fairly young age these children acknowledge that it’s just make-believe. How? Observation, experience, reflection, conversation with others about their experiences. These are ordinary human capabilities for engaging in the world, capabilities that children use continually long before they’ve learned the refinements and formalizations of philosophers.
“apart from God and His grace, we are all hopelessly lost in utter darkness. Of course, this darkness is one for which we ourselves are culpable and blameworthy. No one is a victim of anything other than their own sin.”
Yes I hear this, but says who? Your invisible and inaudible friend? Someone else who claims to have had a close encounter with this friend two thousand years ago and who wrote down the message?
It still seems to me that you need some basis for deciding that particular thoughts and readings and feelings you experience privately come not from your imagination but from an invisible and inaudible friend who isn’t just a space alien but a god or perhaps even The God. You propose that anyone who isn’t corrupted in sin and self-delusion will know with certainty that this is true. But this proposition is itself a purported revelation of this invisible and inaudible friend, made through Paul 2,000 years ago. On what grounds do you decide that Paul’s contentions aren’t just something he made up, some theory he had about why he and his pals believed things that others didn’t? Why not believe the UFO close-encounters people, whose experiences are much more recent?
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Re: The World's Wisdom and God's Folly: A Gospel of ...
What an interesting conversation, which I am joining half way through, so I may be missing the point.
I think all that John says is reasonable and true - provided we accept the worldview of modern enlightenment rationalism, materialism and humanism. Cultures and societies throughout history have believed that the visible world was not the only world with which we could communicate and interact, and other beings, not simply God, could also communicate with us - the world of spirit beings: angels, demons and so on. We can dimiss these alternative worldviews as primitive superstition, but should prehaps observe that we are doing so on the basis of another worldview, itself open to criticism, and not ultimate, objective truth.
I also don’t think we are simply talking about fantasies such as the imaginary friends of little children, or spacemen and aliens of those obsessed with science fiction. On the other hand, in a world which undoubtedly did believe in the existence of the spirit world, and of gods, or even one God, it must have seemed strange to Abraham, when a voice told him to leave the centre of world civilisation and culture at that time, and head towards an unknown land of nomads and pasturalists. Yet out of that response came a nation of which Abraham was the patriarch and founder.
Of course, the story of Abraham could have been the retro-projection of a later age, which was looking to validate its own identity and place in the world. Maybe the same could be said of Moses, and the journey of Israel to Canaan. Or any of the Old Testament characters. Or of Jesus, the accounts of whom seem to describe a relationship with this divine being more intimate than any who preceded him, but never denying the reality of the experiences of those who had gone before. Or of the apostles in Acts. Or Paul. Or of innumerable figures throughout history down to the present age, recorded and unrecorded. Well, it couldn’t be the latter, as we wouldn’t know about them. But it could be today, those whose names may be forgotten in future, who are able to speak of a God who communicates and interacts with them.
Could such people be the victims of a psychotic delusion, which displays a range of similar symptoms? When you consider the range and diversity of those who claim to have had such experiences and interactions, it begins to look unlikely - both in ancient times and now. So on this basis, with this sort of evidence, there seem to be grounds for asking whether it is true that the only communication and interaction there can be is between people who can be seen, touched, heard with our physical senses. And even then, is the only communication that takes place between such people on this physical, tangible level?
Perhaps there is a case for arguing the existence of other types of knowledge, such as revelation, by which God discloses himself, if this were to be an reasonable explanation of what many people experience, and have experienced throughout history. It seems highly probable to me. Also to Karl Barth, who argued against two centuries of developing opinion (even certainty) that rational, scientific and historical investigation were the only sure means of knowledge about the world.
Maybe Hamlet was right: “There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamed of in your philosophy.”
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Re: The World's Wisdom and God's Folly: A Gospel of ...
Peter,
What caught my attention originally on this thread was James’s contention that atheists reject the idea of revelation on general principles. I was contending that we humans, including atheists, continually rely on self-revelation in coming to know about one another. Thus, rejection of revelation tout court is not characteristic of the atheist position.
Invisible, inaudible gods and angels might well be revealing themselves all the time. We might learn something from them if we would just set aside our prejudices and open our minds. Still, I presume you would attempt to discern whether these inaudible messages from invisible self-revealers were real or imaginary. By what criteria would you evaluate UFOlogists’ claims that they were in contact with aliens? I’m suggesting that the criteria you would exercise aren’t much different from my deciding whether the gods are talking to me or to you. Even among Christians, even in your own mind, don’t you have to exercise discernment about whether a particular message or idea comes from God or from human imagination? Even if an ordinary human tells you something about himself, you still try to evaluate whether it’s true or not. I.e., believers and atheists aren’t that different in the means available to them for evaluating the reliability of purported self-revelations.
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Re: The World's Wisdom and God's Folly: A Gospel of ...
I was modifying and refining the idea of revelation - which has to be somewhat different between physical beings, and between an unseen, non-physical being and a visible, tangible being.
Contemporary atheism seems to me largely to have bought into the enlightenment ‘myth’, that there is nothing beyond what we can see, feel or hear with our senses, or measure with our instruments, or analyse with our minds, or research historically. The activity of God, angels and demons seems to me largely to be excluded by this worldview. At least, theism is excluded; deism is the enlightenment God, who, having first been regarded as the absentee landlord, later becomes simply absent.
Revelation then, as self-disclosure, must be a different kind of knowledge when applied to God, than when applied to human beings. Of course, you would want to discern what you were ‘hearing’, ‘seeing’ or even ‘feeling’ when it came to revelation from a non-physical source. But the issue seems to me to be that such knowledge is denied a priori by atheism, and by the practices and lifestyle of contemporary culture in the developed world.
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Re: The World's Wisdom and God's Folly: A Gospel of ...
“Revelation then, as self-disclosure, must be a different kind of knowledge when applied to God, than when applied to human beings.”
Okay, let’s presume that, at least nowadays, the gods and angels don’t use material means of self-revelation such as presenting themselves physically before you or talking audibly to you or doing things physically in the world that you can observe. Thoughts inside your mind work like this as well. If you were an ancient or even a follower of Descartes, you might regard your thoughts as having originated in the immaterial, ideal realm of form or spirit. Good thoughts come from good spirit; bad thoughts from bad spirit. On the other hand, you might regard most of your thoughts as having come from inside your own head, generated by fully materialistic processes happening at the synaptic level in your brain. So now you have two possible sources of unspoken, invisible information: spirit, or brain. Don’t you have to discern whether some particular thought is one or the other, or perhaps even some mix of both?
I was recently having a discussion with a fellow whose wife went off the deep end a couple of years back. She believed that her employer and the government, and perhaps also the Mafia, were spying on her 24/7. When her husband tried to reason with her, getting her to consider possible alternative explanations, she decided that he was part of the conspiracy against her. Self-reflexivity is essential in discerning whether one’s ideas originate from “self-revelations” of the outside world or from inventions of one’s own brain. As the adage goes, just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean someone isn’t out to get you. At some point paranoia becomes the more plausible explanation — to everyone except the paranoiac. Was the poor woman deluded by evil spirits, or had something gone tragically wrong with the biochemical wiring in her brain?
Gravity has tangible effects in the world, but gravity itself is an abstraction. Surely there have been times in history when the downward pull of the earth was regarded as a spiritual force exerted by the earth goddess. Maybe that’s true; maybe the sun god has more spiritual power than the earth goddess. Young children tend to believe that a rock rolls down the hill because the rock wants to go down there. Maybe that’s true too.
On some level I’m prepared to remain agnostic. I believe that thoughts originate in material brains, that brains can go haywire causing bizarre thoughts, that gravity is a natural force. But I might be wrong. And maybe you’re wrong about spirit beings revealing themselves non-verbally to humans. We each have convictions about these things that can be stated clearly and that aren’t patently ludicrous. Let’s agree to disagree. Why should believing something about immaterial beings and forces, beliefs that many sincere people find implausible, be regarded as the most important criterion for building dividing walls between people?
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Re: The World's Wisdom and God's Folly: A Gospel of ...
John - how strange; that the Jesus who was declared by the apostle Paul to have torn down dividing walls between people is said by you to have put them up again. I’m not sure which or whose beliefs you can be referring to!
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Re: The World's Wisdom and God's Folly: A Gospel of ...
It is ironic, I agree, that the Jew/Gentile barrier would be torn down, only to be replaced by the belief/unbelief barrier.
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Re: The World's Wisdom and God's Folly: A Gospel of ...
You’ll note, James, that I’ve not tried to persuade you or anyone else on this site that my view of self-revelation is right and yours is wrong. I’ve also not tried to demonstrate why people who interact with non-material beings are deluding themselves. Obviously you aren’t the only one who believes in God — most people do. I’ve only tried to explain why I think you’re overstating the case by claiming that atheists reject self-revelation categorically. I’ve also tried to explain why the purported self-revelation of a non-material being might be hard for material beings to accept. Andrew was suggesting these possibilities to you before I stepped into the discussion; I thought perhaps I’d be able to clarify a bit more. Maybe I have. I don’t think I have anything further to offer at this point. Thanks for the discussion.
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Re: The World's Wisdom and God's Folly: A Gospel of ...
‘There is much that could be said about this, but I think I would argue that Paul’s insistence on the cross of Christ in opposition both to the Greek demand for reason and the Jewish demand for signs of God’s power….’
Fascinating.
He does not respond to Jewish demands that Christianity be accompanied by miraculous signs of God’s power.
So did Paul just bite his tongue when he was taunted to explain what sort of miracles proved that this Jesus really was the Christ?
If there had been a resurrection, how could Paul have reacted to Jewish demands for miraculous signs by claiming he was not in the business of preaching about signs of God’s power, he was in the business of preaching the crucifixion?
Surely all that stuff in Acts 17 is nonsense. Paul himself says why some people were scoffing at Christianity. It was because of the crucifixion.
He didn’t even preach the resurrection, which would have been one of those miraculous signs of God’s power that Jews demanded, and which Christianity was not in the business of supplying.
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Re: The World's Wisdom and God's Folly: A Gospel of ...
Steven, it’s an interesting question. Apart from this passage and Jesus’ statement that ‘An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah’ (Matt. 12:39 and parallels), ‘signs’ that reveal God’s power are elsewhere regarded as good things. Indeed, the preaching ministry of the apostles was backed up by signs and wonders amongst both Jews and Gentiles.
Perhaps the point is that the Jews were looking for something other than a crucified messiah specifically to save Israel from destruction; they were looking for a demonstration of the power of God (cf. 1 Cor. 1:24) to liberate the people from oppression, perhaps after the manner of the signs that Moses performed in Egypt. It is important to keep in view the rhetorical context: the argument has to do with the basis on which those who are perishing will be saved (1:18). But the reference to the Jewish demand for signs is actually inconsequential. It is the demand for wisdom that Paul is primarily concerned about – and this presumably was motivated by challenges to his apostolic authority. Acts 17 constitutes a quite different rhetorical context.
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Re: The World's Wisdom and God's Folly: A Gospel of ...
As a side note, I would disagree with your claim that Foucault deconstructed anything. He conducted archaeologies and later genealogies of practices. Foucault did, I would agree, talk a lot about power relations and how humans are inextricably embedded in webs of power. And he did draw a lot of his inspiration from Nietzsche.
The deconstructor you want was Derrida. And, in a similar vein as yourself, but with an avowed postmodern slant, John D. Caputo has argued that Jesus was the ultimate deconstructor—so to speak. This argument was made in Caputo’s book, What Would Jesus Deconstruct?
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Re: The World's Wisdom and God's Folly: A Gospel of ...
‘Surely the wisdom of the Jewish scribes was exposed in their rejection of the long-awaited Messiah, to whom all the Scriptures had pointed. So much for their biblical expertise and wisdom!’
I guess Jews don’t really understand the Scriptures they wrote.
Christians did.
They understood passages like
Isaiah 59:20
“The Redeemer will come to Zion,
to those in Jacob who repent of their sins,”
declares the LORD.
Paul knew what that meant , better than the scribes with their Biblical ‘expertise’ and ‘wisdom’
Romans 11:26
And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
Isaiah had written the redeemer will come *to* Zion, but Paul knew it meant the redeemer will come *from* Zion.
The Jews had read Isaiah and never understood that when it said the deliverer will come to Zion, it meant the deliverer will come from Zion.
It took a Christian to understand that.
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A non-believer's lament...
The Lost World of Genesis One - John H. Walton
Chiasm and inclusio
Guerrilla Worship - Liverpool Flash Mob